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Thread: From latest patch notes.

  1. #1
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    From latest patch notes.

    * Offhand auto-attacks now do 70% less damage.
    Okay....I know warriors were whining that DW was more dps than 2H but did they stop to think what this would do to a rogue who has no access to 2 handers? Just curious.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Okay....I know warriors were whining that DW was more dps than 2H but did they stop to think what this would do to a rogue who has no access to 2 handers? Just curious.
    Hence why a number of Rogue abilities were buffed.
    Changes need to be considered as part of the whole, not on their own.

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    I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention on the beta notes, but the only buff I have seen to rogues(or anything done to rogues) for the the past 3 beta's are the sin buffs we got. Rogues have only been slightly nerfed via weapon enchants and this. and sin got a bump

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Hence why a number of Rogue abilities were buffed.
    Changes need to be considered as part of the whole, not on their own.
    Assassin and 61 NB got buffed because they were underperforming. In warlord gear selfbuffed the autoattack change is about 140-200 dps nerf to all melee specs. The Dark Descent change doesn't even cover that loss in dps, BD got nothing to compensate for it. Not sure if the assassin buffs were worth more than the autoattack nerf.

    I agree with the OP, this looks like something that was pushed in to make warrior dual wield vs 2h autoattack dps equal without thinking how it would affect rogue specs.

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    Another issue

    * Auto-attack damage is once again randomized.
    How does this effect normalization? In original beta people raised the issue of EQ2 where to maximize dps all melee classes looked for weapons with slower attack speeds because the larger damage spread ended up equaling more dps. As such you NEVER saw a single scout wielding daggers, they all wielded long swords.

    With returning Auto attacks to random numbers it appears the same thing will occur.

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    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Assassin and 61 NB got buffed because they were underperforming. In warlord gear selfbuffed the autoattack change is about 140-200 dps nerf to all melee specs. The Dark Descent change doesn't even cover that loss in dps, BD got nothing to compensate for it. Not sure if the assassin buffs were worth more than the autoattack nerf.

    I agree with the OP, this looks like something that was pushed in to make warrior dual wield vs 2h autoattack dps equal without thinking how it would affect rogue specs.
    Sin and NB are not underperforming, they are right on target. BD was slightly overpowered so got nothing to compensate for the loss.

    Trust me, Ailion knows exactly how the autoattack change affected Rogues and already adjusted for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Sin and NB are not underperforming, they are right on target. BD was slightly overpowered so got nothing to compensate for the loss.

    Trust me, Ailion knows exactly how the autoattack change affected Rogues and already adjusted for it.
    Then I need to ask why the prime warrior builds out dps them? I mean their goal is to have all melee ~ equal right? I am honestly not trying to troll here but I have yet to see a parse where rogues are competitive with warriors at end game.

    Also FYI a properly played NB actually does a touch more dps than BD ST so how is BD overpowered vompared to NB?

    If however you are correct and warriors are simply in line for more gradual adjustments (which I am a fan of vs nerf bat) then all Ailion or Daglar has to do is say this. it is not an unreasonable request in light of the fact this change is in response to a warrior issue AND has a tangental effect on rogues.

    Edit: I also find it odd that you feel things are somehow balanced when you said in response to SL raids being all warrior dps...

    Pretty much this, although if you really want to optimise you'd be using Riftstalkers, running your Warrior tanks as DPS and benching your spare Clerics. Also since no BM you'd want a Druid to keep up Natural Dedication for the 5% Dps buff.
    So even you believe that warrior dps is superior and thus the rogue builds are all by definition under performing. Just sayin.

  8. #8
    I see no reason why offhand autoattacks need to do less damage. Thats just a smack for the whole Rogue soul. This is obviously a Warrior nerf that didnt need to go in like that. Just because the garbage engineers cant fix dual wield Warriors from doing more damage then 2h doesnt mean they have to nerf Rogues in the process. But then the autoattacks were never the problem for Warrior dual wield from doing more ability damage then 2h, that still needs to be fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Sin and NB are not underperforming, they are right on target. BD was slightly overpowered so got nothing to compensate for the loss.

    Trust me, Ailion knows exactly how the autoattack change affected Rogues and already adjusted for it.
    ^ This. Ailion is a numbers guy. He knows precisely what to do when it comes to number changes, I think.

    I think it went a little something like this, at the office...:
    Gersh/Daglar: "I want the DPS quota to be X."
    Atrius: "Eh, I'll shoot for =or+ 2k of X. Maybe more on the + end."
    Zinbik: "Maybe I'll go for -or= 1k."
    Kervik: "Maybe I'll go for =or+ 1k."
    Ailion: *puts on shades* "You guys are silly. X it is. No +or-."
    Only kidding, I love you Trion people. Keep it up.


    @OP: Regarding autoattack changes, it didn't only affect us, it did nerf the warriors as well. If we lost 150 DPS or such on the higher end, then so did they. They just get to choose between 2h or DW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rootyy View Post
    ^ This. Ailion is a numbers guy. He knows precisely what to do when it comes to number changes, I think.

    I think it went a little something like this, at the office...:
    Gersh/Daglar: "I want the DPS quota to be X."
    Atrius: "Eh, I'll shoot for +or- 2k of X. Maybe more on the + end."
    Zinbik: "Maybe I'll go for -or= 1k."
    Kervik: "Maybe I'll go for =or+ 1k."
    Ailion: *puts on shades* "You guys are silly. X it is. No +or-."
    Only kidding, I love you Trion people. Keep it up.


    @OP: Regarding autoattack changes, it didn't only affect us, it did nerf the warriors as well. If we lost 150 DPS or such on the higher end, then so did they. They just get to choose between 2h or DW.
    If Primal really believed that he would not have said what he did on the Live forums. Also your own statement makes my head hurt. basically you are saying that because we have an accurate dev we should simply accept being behind other callings based on the sloppy coding of their leads? You are joking right?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Warrior is just blatantly overpowered across the board in their ST DPS souls.
    Rogue and Cleric are fine, Mage a little over in some specs, Warriors are ridiculous.

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    Well Ailion stated that the game was balanced around 51 point as well as 61 point builds. If this is the case then there is an issue. The only change to NB is the 61 pt ability. After testing the same 51 point build the auto attack nerf resulted in a loss of almost 100 dps from autoattack.

    Average autoattack pre nerf 237.60 dps with my gear
    Post nerf 157.14 dps.

    I don't even want to think what it did to Blade dancer. AA was only 4% of NB it was 9% of Bladedancer. As I said BD actually performed a little woprse ST than NB so it getting a clear nerf makes no sense.

    Additionally I don't think you understand the purpose of the change to Dark Descent. That change was to be in compliance with Ailions expressed desire to not have sub 5 pt combination be optimal. With DD being 30 seconds it accomplishes this as it's duration matches SoD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Well Ailion stated that the game was balanced around 51 point as well as 61 point builds. If this is the case then there is an issue. The only change to NB is the 61 pt ability. After testing the same 51 point build the auto attack nerf resulted in a loss of almost 100 dps from autoattack.

    Average autoattack pre nerf 237.60 dps with my gear
    Post nerf 157.14 dps.

    I don't even want to think what it did to Blade dancer. AA was only 4% of NB it was 9% of Bladedancer. As I said BD actually performed a little woprse ST than NB so it getting a clear nerf makes no sense.

    Additionally I don't think you understand the purpose of the change to Dark Descent. That change was to be in compliance with Ailions expressed desire to not have sub 5 pt combination be optimal. With DD being 30 seconds it accomplishes this as it's duration matches SoD.
    Easier to buff rogues than nerf warriors with the issue fixed...

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    And that's fine. What irks me is this. Some of us are on beta paying attention to the actual changes, the whys and such, not just looking at the pretty scenery. A change which was obvioulsy in place to fix a warrior issue has an impact on rogues. It was not unforseen either. Yet no info as to what if anything will be done in relation to rogues. Silence pisses people off more than communication.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Sin and NB are not underperforming, they are right on target. BD was slightly overpowered so got nothing to compensate for the loss.

    Trust me, Ailion knows exactly how the autoattack change affected Rogues and already adjusted for it.
    Ailion does know what he is doing, which is why he knew assassin was underperforming and buffed it. And yes 61 NB was underperforming compared to other NB alternatives since Dark Descent was too weak to compensate for having to train the 7 weakest talent points to get from 54 to 61. Based on initial tests it seems more balanced now and the rotation is more natural. But if we take into account all the build options then NB lost dps.

    So if Sin and NB were both on target like you said then why one was buffed and the other one was nerfed?

    This change has Atrius written on it instead of Ailion so I'm not so sure the necessary adjustments have been made for it yet.

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    I think it's more that it was a necessary change for warriors so rogues got some small adjustments to compensate.

    I mean.. it's a reduction in offhand dps, you can't expect a huge buff from the loss.
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    Try Bladedancer. It looks like the nerf may have kicked quick and precision strike in the teeth. I was rushed in testing though (wife aggro) so if someone could confirm or deny.

    Additionally if the dps was enough to create a huge difference in dw to 2 h dps....then yeah it's importante.

  18. #18
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    That's odd. The nerf in offhand auto attack should have no effect on quick strike and precision strike.

  19. #19
    I didn't notice anything nerfed in quick strike or precision strike. Could it be that you just forgot to train them up to level 60 versions?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    I didn't notice anything nerfed in quick strike or precision strike. Could it be that you just forgot to train them up to level 60 versions?

    1 Week ago he nerfed DMG of QS / PS, but now as he nerfed the OH WP DPS, he reverted the DMG back on QS / PS so BD wouldn't take a hit in DPS.

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