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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Changes to AoE healing focus on Bard

  1. #41
    Senior Member Mirimon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Again, I will reiterate that this AE healing nerf is not targeted specifically to the Bard. If the Bard is doing X% less HPS than the Chloro in 1.11, it will still do X% less HPS than the Chloro in SL.

    http://beta.forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?t=6292

    The AE healing nerf was necessary because the previous AE HPS goals set was too high relative to the ST HPS goal. It diminishes the impact of ST healing in a raid environment.
    hm.. well.. I would disagree.. the impact of not having proper st healing in raid was people wiping over and over again.. I could see how this may not hold true for a few bosses of t1 raid content for those of us who vastly out gear it... but I have yet to see a moment when we could simply ignore having st heals..

    further into this.. wtf does this have to do with the ability to play the 2 classes at all while leveling up into 60? pretty sure there is a better solution.. some other places to nip and tuck these numbers via encounters/mob types/mechanics and specific scenarios. This is like saying "to prevent a possible electrocution to people, we are banning electricity all together, and have outlawed lightning as well" sure.. bit of an exaggeration, but the point is, you do not use a Hydrogen bomb to kill a gnat.

    Can't we look at these "rare events" in which this alleged issue of not needing st healing exist and figure out what the real problem is? and apply this lesson learned to any possible future content?

    atm this direction makes us sad to play bard, to take such a large step backwards only to lethargically lurch forward if at all? I would say there definitely have to be better solutions.

    idk.. let's meet up and iron out this stuff?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Again, I will reiterate that this AE healing nerf is not targeted specifically to the Bard. If the Bard is doing X% less HPS than the Chloro in 1.11, it will still do X% less HPS than the Chloro in SL.

    http://beta.forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?t=6292

    The AE healing nerf was necessary because the previous AE HPS goals set was too high relative to the ST HPS goal. It diminishes the impact of ST healing in a raid environment.
    Care to give the numerical goal that bards and tacticians are meant to be at. Yes, I know that players will attempt to manipulate the numbers, but this is healing, something that is quite easily dispelled one way or another by massing characters up with consistent damage and seeing what plays out over X time.

    Since you've stated their purpose, and as a suggestion this would be fantastic to do at the start of every beta, it makes our handling of the class a lot different then what it would be if we had not known the design's intent. For rogues, the bard has quite literally been the reject of the class, just below riftstalkers in the way they are usually addressed. With tactician, I expect to see a lot of feedback once this hits live as it forces guilds to move in tandem if they have any desire to make the tactician a fully utilized soul. I like the concept, we'll see about the implementation.

    With the current healing nerf, where do we expect to see rogues stand? Previously, we knew from beta that if we lacked an AE healer, we could utilize a bard in its place, maybe even double up. I realize that you do not control the other classes, but it is an important aspect to us as players to know where we stand, and whether or not we will actually have a viable contribution in place of another class. If we look at the past, historically, our healing has consistently been three out of three. Bards really were just there for the buffs. Historically, our DPS has consistently been three out of four (ST). We provided some excellent AE (which we still do) and some debuffs that were fairly nice to have on encounters. Historically our tanking has consistently been three out of three, except at the start where our resists made up for our lack of physical mitigation (though this should change with SL if we can teleport). The point I'm making is that with this is that, talking for myself, would like to know the direction from your perspective that we are intended to go for pretty much everything.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mirimon's Avatar
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    oh, and did you look at that other thread, about how the + to % healing wasn't effecting some heals, and how other heals seem to not be effected by anything other than the character's actual level for some reason?... atm things are still a bit wonky in bard as to what effects the heals now (bug/stat issues) did not have problems clearly finding that ap was + to healing and + to healing was GUD for healing as bard, but now only a few do as stated, the rest are all over the place.

    and power chord has just plain ran away.. no point in anybody even having that ability on a bar any more, imo.. need bigger incentives to use this ability in any rotation or for any purpose..

    nvm, the llist for bard/tact issues goes on, and is summarized better on other threads.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Again, I will reiterate that this AE healing nerf is not targeted specifically to the Bard. If the Bard is doing X% less HPS than the Chloro in 1.11, it will still do X% less HPS than the Chloro in SL.

    http://beta.forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?t=6292

    The AE healing nerf was necessary because the previous AE HPS goals set was too high relative to the ST HPS goal. It diminishes the impact of ST healing in a raid environment.
    Ailion, for the sake of argument I will grant you this point. The issue still remains however how this effects the Tactician as a raid healer. As much as the torrent/beam mechanic works in theory in a real raid it has issues when mechanics and the like force the raid to NOT be in a row, it was the bard heals that filled the gap. Without that you end up with a "raid healing specialist" that can raid heal only on very niche fights where the raid is forced to stack in nice little 4 meter wide piles.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Ailion, for the sake of argument I will grant you this point. The issue still remains however how this effects the Tactician as a raid healer. As much as the torrent/beam mechanic works in theory in a real raid it has issues when mechanics and the like force the raid to NOT be in a row, it was the bard heals that filled the gap. Without that you end up with a "raid healing specialist" that can raid heal only on very niche fights where the raid is forced to stack in nice little 4 meter wide piles.
    We might as well face the facts Rogues will never heal and Clerics will never DPS after all this time it is crystal clear...... Talk is Talk and the results are in the game...

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mirimon's Avatar
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    i say.. it's not too late to right these wrongs.. and make the adjustments where they are really needed..

    btw.. am not joking when I say at lvl 50 1.11 I outheal beta lvl 60 bard.., thats how drastic this is effecting.. might also have something to do with the heals scaling all weird.. (been running parses naked, adding ap, adding healing, all kinds of stuff.. these "healing" spells are all out of wack as far as what effects them, if anything.)

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    We might as well face the facts Rogues will never heal and Clerics will never DPS after all this time it is crystal clear...... Talk is Talk and the results are in the game...
    And I have no real issue with this. My issue is with the inconsistency between statements and actions. That is all tbh. If you keep saying "X was nerfed for the benefit of Y, the specialist at that job" then Y better at least 3/4 fit the bill. Right now with the exception of a gimick fight the Tac is about as much a raid healer as an Archon is dps.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mirimon's Avatar
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    when looking at the big picture.. lets say your a cleric leveling sl content on the old heal system.. there was absolutely no threat involved.. as cleric leveling is nearly faceroll,

    with the changes they may have to think a bit about what they do as they level in terms of specs and how much they are limited in pulling, while maintaining no down time.

    where as rogues.. could not do nearly as much pre 1.11, and now much better off in that aspect, but with this change applied.. reducing a class who still had to be very much mindfull of what it did out in the open world... where the healing was just enough.. it will now be inadequate. its difficult to handle more than 4 mobs of the same level now in the most +healing/mitigation spec contrived.

    mages may be in a similar boat.. idk how much this is hurting their cloro/harb mix for lvl 60 solo grind and leveling up to 60.


    and of course.. the whole contradictory statements issue... must we now see anything said as some used car salesman pitch?

    if we aren't going to heal ourselves very well.. let alone a raid group much at all.. then idk.. it starting to make bard look almost as lost as tactician.

    tone it back up imo.. reduce over shield effectiveness and increase incoming dmg.

    btw.. just for giggles.. parsed laethys doing no natural heals in rotation.. doing about the same hps from MoR and occasional CoI as my current beta bard when trying to raid heal..

    I feel like Nancy Carrigan...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Again, I will reiterate that this AE healing nerf is not targeted specifically to the Bard. If the Bard is doing X% less HPS than the Chloro in 1.11, it will still do X% less HPS than the Chloro in SL.

    http://beta.forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?t=6292

    The AE healing nerf was necessary because the previous AE HPS goals set was too high relative to the ST HPS goal. It diminishes the impact of ST healing in a raid environment.
    Wait wait, are you saying that you made overarching changes across all facets of the game because of raids? Changes that impact PVP and solo PVE play as well? I don't know if you meant it that way, so thats why I'm asking. Cause if you are making changes to PVE for PVP or making changes to PVP for PVE then thats very bad. In that situation then I think its time to seriously look at seperating how "problem spells" are handled in seperate environments. I'm not sure why designers are so resistant to this. Players are pretty smart, they can keep track of the fact that a spell may behave a bit differently in PVE than in PVP or vice versa.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Sharog's Avatar
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    IF bard = Resonance + 2cd

    Then what is Archon or Beastmaster? Apply 2 buff and AFK?

    Last time i checked In any situation if u can only have 1 Support, and no further restrictions, all will want a BARD first, so where is the equalty in that?

    It is Still the absolute must have Support in a Raid since beginning of time. When Beastmaster can hybrid in to something to Aoe heal, i will personaly support buffing the bard. till then...
    <Spectral Oilypics>

  11. #51
    Senior Member Mirimon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharog View Post
    IF bard = Resonance + 2cd

    Then what is Archon or Beastmaster? Apply 2 buff and AFK?

    Last time i checked In any situation if u can only have 1 Support, and no further restrictions, all will want a BARD first, so where is the equalty in that?

    It is Still the absolute must have Support in a Raid since beginning of time. When Beastmaster can hybrid in to something to Aoe heal, i will personaly support buffing the bard. till then...

    not really.. most of the buffs between the support classes are pretty equal, while some of the supporting functions buff the person using them even more, and that each support soul has it's own neat little set of cd's for the raid, that do not stack.. it may be beneficial to have them all in raid and rotate through them to effect a 100% uptime on +to dmg/mitigation/healing.

    the big bufs we need are also stacking now, while other buffs like LE/Ferver do not, having more than one support means that if for some reason the archon dies.. or the bard pulls aggro again (because we still cant seem to fix the threat issue with bard??) the others can cover down on those priority buffs like fervor.

    I'm a bit sad that my 50 bard on live can outheal my raiding 60 bard in beta... what is this.. a Paula Abdul song?

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