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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Changes to AoE healing focus on Bard

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    Changes to AoE healing focus on Bard

    Ailion, I understand that AoE healing got a nerf across the board but it seems that Bard and Cloro (not your department) took it in the teeth as opposed to Clerics.

    Now I personally thought that VoV hitting 20 people was a little crazy. It made me happy but I expected it to be nerfed . Back down to 5 though seems extreme especially since you and Gersh said a bard/Tac should be a viable raid healer.

    If this has changed please, just let us know, we can take it. It's inconsistency of action when compared to statements that annoys us more than anything. If that has not changed a suggestion or two regarding bard.

    Increase invigorated soul to 3,6,9% and VoV's targets to 10 people from 5. It's not that adjustments we not needed to some extent but that they just went a tad too far IMO. From looking at the history of Rift the nerfs are almost always over done and eventually you end up at the "happy medium" anyway, so why wait?

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    Senior Member Xillean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Ailion, I understand that AoE healing got a nerf across the board but it seems that Bard and Cloro (not your department) took it in the teeth as opposed to Clerics.

    Now I personally thought that VoV hitting 20 people was a little crazy. It made me happy but I expected it to be nerfed . Back down to 5 though seems extreme especially since you and Gersh said a bard/Tac should be a viable raid healer.

    If this has changed please, just let us know, we can take it. It's inconsistency of action when compared to statements that annoys us more than anything. If that has not changed a suggestion or two regarding bard.

    Increase invigorated soul to 3,6,9% and VoV's targets to 10 people from 5. It's not that adjustments we not needed to some extent but that they just went a tad too far IMO. From looking at the history of Rift the nerfs are almost always over done and eventually you end up at the "happy medium" anyway, so why wait?
    Would be nice if Coda of Restoration also hit 10, from what it looks like all of the tactician healing abilities now hit ten so why cant the bard ones?I dont expect to heal like a actual healer but I agree with Galibier it feels like you guys swung to hard in the other direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Increase invigorated soul to 3,6,9% and VoV's targets to 10 people from 5. It's not that adjustments we not needed to some extent but that they just went a tad too far IMO. From looking at the history of Rift the nerfs are almost always over done and eventually you end up at the "happy medium" anyway, so why wait?
    +1

    /stopnerfingbard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xillean View Post
    Would be nice if Coda of Restoration also hit 10, from what it looks like all of the tactician healing abilities now hit ten so why cant the bard ones?I dont expect to heal like a actual healer but I agree with Galibier it feels like you guys swung to hard in the other direction.
    The problem is though during the Rogue reveal they stated we should be perfectly viable as raid healers. This means in terms of raid healing we SHOULD be able to heal like an actual healer.

    That is why I asked for clarification as to whether this mission statement has changed.

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    Senior Member Xillean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    The problem is though during the Rogue reveal they stated we should be perfectly viable as raid healers. This means in terms of raid healing we SHOULD be able to heal like an actual healer.

    That is why I asked for clarification as to whether this mission statement has changed.
    Hey fine by me man I didn't mean to seem like I disagreed with you, I dont. What do you think of our bard heals all hitting 10? hitting 5 certainly isn't a raid :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    The problem is though during the Rogue reveal they stated we should be perfectly viable as raid healers. This means in terms of raid healing we SHOULD be able to heal like an actual healer.

    That is why I asked for clarification as to whether this mission statement has changed.
    I think it goes something like bard can raid heal but is it 100% viable? Cleric can Dps but is it 100% viable... You get the idea.. Can do it but Is it worth it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xillean View Post
    Hey fine by me man I didn't mean to seem like I disagreed with you, I dont. What do you think of our bard heals all hitting 10? hitting 5 certainly isn't a raid :/

    That is where I think it should be. The answer of course will be "go tactician." Here is the problem with that. The mechanic of torrents.

    More than a couple of the fights where you have AoE damage have mechanics to keep the raid spread out. The one fight most everyone will know for this in Murdantix. If the raid is not spread out ranged gets double tapped.

    Also lets be honest, how many raid forces have melee stacked in a nice 4 meter row over here and ranged in a 4 meter row over there? It is one thing to have position that you can control matter. I control where I stand, I control where I aim. I can NOT control where stupid AI mobs stand nor where the rest of the raid stands either just because or due to the script mechanics of an encounter. As such unless the torrents become frontal cones like cleaves the utility of tactician as a raid healer is FAR more limited than the other callings. As such calling it a viable raid healer is a wash out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    I think it goes something like bard can raid heal but is it 100% viable? Cleric can Dps but is it 100% viable... You get the idea.. Can do it but Is it worth it...
    First the devs said they would be viable raid healers. They also said they want clerics to do equal dps. If not for these statements by the devs I would remain silent. As I said my issue is with the inconsistency between statements and actions. If Ailion would come out and say...

    "hey we had this cool idea to make rogues viable raid healers BUT we got a lot of push back from the mages and clerics that had been healing since vanilla launch so we are changing things. Sorry guys, we'll work something else out for ya..."

    I would be cool with this. The only thing I ever ask from anyone is if they make statements they then act in a manner consistent with said statements OR either further elaborate on or correct their prior statements. I don't see this as too much to ask.

    EDIT: Let me clarify something else. I am not looking for rogues to be THE raid healer. I want enough so that if you are a good player then the Cleric or Mage needs to actually play well to try and stay ahead vs what the nerfs have done which means /faceroll to stay ahead. It is this that gives me the issue and again ONLY because of prior dev statements.

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    Here's to some clarification:

    1) The AE healing nerf is applied to all AE healing abilities across all callings. It is not specific to Bard alone. As such, the AE HPS goals have been reduced.

    2) The Bard's AE HPS goals have been lower than the AE healing specialists (Warden, Tactician, Chloro) by design. After the calling wide AE healing nerf, the Bard's AE HPS goals are still the same % lower than the AE healing specialists.

    3) The Bard is not an AE healing specialist. It is more of a "support" AE healer. So it is intended for its AE healing abilities to only affect 5 group members, similar to the Sentinel's Healing Communion. MoR is the exception since it is a raid wide buff. VoV is an oversight which I have addressed for SL.

    4) The Tactician is an AE healer and not a tank healer. As such, the Tactician cannot be relied upon to keep the tank alive in a raid situation, assuming you are geared for that tier of content (not over or under geared).

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    wondering. It took mythic about 2 Years and 900.000 lost subs to realize its not ae healing / ae damage figures that make AE so difficult to balance but that its the unlimited stacking of those. How long will it take trion devs to realize that? I hope faster but time runs out ^^

    1 cleric heal is quite balanced. 2 clerics healing is to high, 3 clerics healing gets ridicoulus. with lowering ae healing figures you are working on the symptoms but not on the disease.

    put in a diminishing system for ae dmg and heal and you will have balance on all scales of combat once and forever.

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    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    You don't need diminishing returns on AoE heals, if you have too many healers you can't meet dps checks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    You don't need diminishing returns on AoE heals, if you have too many healers you can't meet dps checks.
    If the aoe heals were not nerfed, there was no realistic amount of damage you could throw at a raid and hope to kill a raid if they had two Wardens or warden/chloro combination, + bard.
    <Vendetta>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    If the aoe heals were not nerfed, there was no realistic amount of damage you could throw at a raid and hope to kill a raid if they had two Wardens or warden/chloro combination, + bard.
    I didn't say a nerf wasn't needed, of course it was.

    What I said was there is no need for a diminishing returns mechanic on AoE heals to prevent stacking them, dps checks already do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailion View Post
    Here's to some clarification:

    1) The AE healing nerf is applied to all AE healing abilities across all callings. It is not specific to Bard alone. As such, the AE HPS goals have been reduced.

    2) The Bard's AE HPS goals have been lower than the AE healing specialists (Warden, Tactician, Chloro) by design. After the calling wide AE healing nerf, the Bard's AE HPS goals are still the same % lower than the AE healing specialists.

    3) The Bard is not an AE healing specialist. It is more of a "support" AE healer. So it is intended for its AE healing abilities to only affect 5 group members, similar to the Sentinel's Healing Communion. MoR is the exception since it is a raid wide buff. VoV is an oversight which I have addressed for SL.

    4) The Tactician is an AE healer and not a tank healer. As such, the Tactician cannot be relied upon to keep the tank alive in a raid situation, assuming you are geared for that tier of content (not over or under geared).
    1) I understand all this Ailion. It's why I said that nerfs were needed I just think they were over done, which if we are honest is historically the case with all nerfs going back to 2011 launch. Simply increasing a 5 man channel to 9% of AP and VoV would not suddenly make 51 or 61 Bard a raid healing soul BUT it would allow them to contribute something at the same level that they did 1.10.

    2) My main issue is with tactician, and then it is with the soul in practice not in theory. You can be the most accurate, most raid aware and tactically sound player in THE game and the torrent mechanic will fail if the raid is not perfectly stacked. Often raid mechanics are designed to prevent stacking period. So you will have a soul that can raid heal on fights that have stack mechanics but then not raid heal on other fights. This seems off to me. The idea behind the soul is excellent, I just think the mechanic is overly limited.

    2.1) That is why I wonder if for heals at least a frontal cone is more appropriate vs the column it currently is. It would still make positioning important but it would also allow the build to be function on more fights.

    3) I do get all AE healing was reduced across the board but I noticed something. Take the new mechanic of some many raid wide shields out of the equation and raid healing is actually arguably broken now.

    This begs the question did all raid heals need a nerf OR rather did a couple raid shields need an adjustment. As an example, at least pre-60, ATM, Puri is simply stupidly OP, this coming from the guy who ran all of HK BEGGING to run Purifier. With this much straight damage prevention there is really no way to really gauge the degree of adjustments to heals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    1) I understand all this Ailion. It's why I said that nerfs were needed I just think they were over done, which if we are honest is historically the case with all nerfs going back to 2011 launch. Simply increasing a 5 man channel to 9% of AP and VoV would not suddenly make 51 or 61 Bard a raid healing soul BUT it would allow them to contribute something at the same level that they did 1.10.
    I think that their new contribution is higher dps than they had in 1.10 and 1.11....

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    Which the BM and Archon can do better. Archon has always been "dps" support. bard was "hps" support. BM is clearly "dps" support.

    I do love your tendency though to cherry pick lines you think you have a witty zinger for though and ignore the other issues that you can't respond to. Same here as on live. Remember how earlier I said I like consistency? This is one case where I don't. It does annoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Which the BM and Archon can do better. Archon has always been "dps" support. bard was "hps" support. BM is clearly "dps" support.

    I do love your tendency though to cherry pick lines you think you have a witty zinger for though and ignore the other issues that you can't respond to. Same here as on live. Remember how earlier I said I like consistency? This is one case where I don't. It does annoy.
    I see no reason why VoV and Healing communion can't effect 10 raid members instead of only 5 but he clearly explained why this change was done and this is consistency... Bards without a Brez and a cleanse pretty much limits them in 5 mans and that is the only limiting factor needed in the area. I also agree that tact is going to be a not needed raid healing soul simply because it is so limited...

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    My concern is with these changes rogue no longer has a reliable grinding/questing spec. The overpowered heals in previous betas made it so rogues could grind and quest at the same pace as the other classes. Currently, on Beta3, I am adjusting pull size and time between pulls in order not to die. I am left comparing myself to my mage alt, who has considerably less gear and level. My mage can pull as much as she wants, can heal the entire damage amount taken while sustaining considerable aoe dps. In the earlier betas my rogue was able to do this with a high bard spec, relying on the heals from cadence when things got bad. I can no longer do this with the current healing changes. I am left making a glass cannon spec, trying to blow everything up before I die.

    I am fine with the intended role of bard and tact in a raid environment but I do not like how the change effected solo play. A solution I can be happy with is upping Assassin's healing from leaching poison. Considering how leaching poison is a self heal with little raid benefit, I would like if it played a more important role in solo play. The changes to leaching poison in 1.11 made it so it does considerably less hps, making the ability pretty much useless imo. If it was adjusted to provide much more sustainable healing it would have a place in the game and make it so rogues can compete with the other classes in questing and grinding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    I see no reason why VoV and Healing communion can't effect 10 raid members instead of only 5 but he clearly explained why this change was done and this is consistency... Bards without a Brez and a cleanse pretty much limits them in 5 mans and that is the only limiting factor needed in the area. I also agree that tact is going to be a not needed raid healing soul simply because it is so limited...
    And that is my point. What would make Tact work is if you could get VoV to cover 10 people. I am assuming the nature of the torrent is too hard coded to change to cone easily. You could even do this by having a talent deep in Tact. Have Palliative care read "increases healing done by 5%.." (per point) "increases number of people healed by AoE heals by 1" again per point.

    In this way tactician would have VoV to fall back on in those occurrences where the raid is spread out, it is deep enough in that a 51/61 Bard can't get to it (and 61 bard is going to be a must have imo) and it retains the promise of a viable raid healer that was given in the reveal.

    I am not looking for BARD specifically to be a raid healer. It's just that imo the only thing that made Tact/bard the raid healer proclaimed in the reveal was how bard worked at the time. With the limits on tact and the nerfs to bard, this no longer exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bessel View Post
    My concern is with these changes rogue no longer has a reliable grinding/questing spec. The overpowered heals in previous betas made it so rogues could grind and quest at the same pace as the other classes. Currently, on Beta3, I am adjusting pull size and time between pulls in order not to die. I am left comparing myself to my mage alt, who has considerably less gear and level. My mage can pull as much as she wants, can heal the entire damage amount taken while sustaining considerable aoe dps. In the earlier betas my rogue was able to do this with a high bard spec, relying on the heals from cadence when things got bad. I can no longer do this with the current healing changes. I am left making a glass cannon spec, trying to blow everything up before I die.

    I am fine with the intended role of bard and tact in a raid environment but I do not like how the change effected solo play. A solution I can be happy with is upping Assassin's healing from leaching poison. Considering how leaching poison is a self heal with little raid benefit, I would like if it played a more important role in solo play. The changes to leaching poison in 1.11 made it so it does considerably less hps, making the ability pretty much useless imo. If it was adjusted to provide much more sustainable healing it would have a place in the game and make it so rogues can compete with the other classes in questing and grinding.
    41 RS/Y BD/ X tact right now is a great questing/grinding spec. at 60 even more so.

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