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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Questions about Cleric DPS

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    Questions about Cleric DPS

    Is the goal for DPS Clerics to be in 4th position?

    If Yes:

    A) Why?
    B) Is it ~5% from 3rd ~10% from 2nd ~15% from 1st?
    C) Or ist ~5% from 1st?

    if the answer is (B):


    With the introduction of Tenebrious Distortion: Now causes Marrow Harvest to increase non-Physical damage taken by 2.5-5% for 30 seconds (same stacking group as Clinging Spirit).

    Although that is a great addition because it means Clerics wont be forced to play Inquisitor if they wanted to DPS. Why bring Cleric DPS?

    if the answer is (C):

    Does that mean every calling is tuned very close to each other and it is based on player skill who ends up 5% below the rest, or does it mean Clerics are actually tuned 5% weaker on purpose? which brings us back to (A)
    <Special Olympics> Recruiting Mage Pets (with or without their owner) to replace our Cleric DPS.

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    I agree with you.
    We are heading towards:
    - 1 Purifier
    - 1 Warden/SentWarden/Sentinel
    - 1 Defiler
    - 1 More Healer or 1 Tank or nothing

    And take Warrior to replace the 5th Cleric, or Two Warriors if there isn't a Cleric Tank (or 3 Cleric Healer).

    Give us the ex-Defilemancer like spec

  3. #3
    Senior Member Haipaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byona View Post
    A) Why?
    Ok, I'll bite.

    Clerics are healers!
    Haipz - Special Olympics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haipaa View Post
    Ok, I'll bite.

    Clerics are healers!
    http://imageshack.us/a/img27/5430/c3f14a95627.jpg

    no but srsly we are not the only healers, Chloro AoE could replace a Warden and most likely does more DPS, Bard AoE heals are also great although undeserved because Rogues currently have 4 roles. So the excuse that Clerics are healers is bad.

    Only a Dev knows if the answer is yes or no to my question in the OP anyway, which is what im hoping to get an answer for.
    <Special Olympics> Recruiting Mage Pets (with or without their owner) to replace our Cleric DPS.

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    Senior Member Sharog's Avatar
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    When i say i dont want to hurt anyone, doesnt mean i didnt.
    <Spectral Oilypics>

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    We know the post of Daglar but in 1.11 and at SL we are behind the other classes. So, in a raid, leaders will preferred take another DPS classes than cleric to obtain more DPS and down bosses faster. Even if we are supposed to be as the same level than the other.

    In fact, we were close to rogue DPS. Mage were and are a bit higher than us and warriors .. LOL.

    Then, we must wait a nerf of wars/mages/rogues or a up of clerics ?

    After this patch, you killed our alternative to run a 19defiler spec and get a decent DPS with +15% death damage. ( + Husk of Indifference nerf)
    Now we are bench warmers, healers, defiler or tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharog View Post
    When i say i dont want to hurt anyone, doesnt mean i didnt.
    You'll never hurt me, Sharog.

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    Wow. I have to say, if the whole point here is, "dps - lol...but wait until 60!!", that's a pretty limited way to build an expansion. Not everyone starting SL will be an ID-geared raider with a ton of plat in reserve for quick access to the new gear/items on the AH. Racing to the endgame/raids isn't a goal of everyone who plays, no matter how often the devs seem to cater to that, and not every player carrying on their leveling in SL will be a raider from the original game. I understand that the majority of people are only around to get to the endgame, but limiting an entire class until you hit level 60 is foolish. And if a soul is proving too difficult to level with in normal gear, most people are not going to keep plugging away at it in the hopes that it'll get better with just one more level--when, in fact, it's not.

    I have always stuck with the cleric class, as I love the options I have when playing it, but it gets very frustrating and disheartening at times when you're bashing away at something for what feels like forever--over and over, quest after quest. I will play around with points and trees endlessly if I have to, but that's not as fun to me as actually playing the game. When I started Rift, I leveled with what turned out to be a ridiculously hard (didn't know that at the time) but amazingly fun role, so it's not like I don't have the patience--but that role was still viable, playable, and satisfying, in a way it would not be today. Going from 50 to 60 with as fast as the storyline quests in SL progress is proving to be much more frustrating and much less fun. I have hopes that there is still time in beta testing to address this, but with the overwhelming attitude of "It'll all make sense at 60," those hopes aren't very high anymore.

    None of us want an easy game. But a challenge that isn't also a frustrating grind to the finish (and then learning at the finish--and start of the endgame--that your spec is crap in endgame) with the one cookie-cutter build that everyone is using to survive shouldn't be an unreachable expectation.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Byona View Post
    if the answer is (C):

    Does that mean every calling is tuned very close to each other and it is based on player skill who ends up 5% below the rest, or does it mean Clerics are actually tuned 5% weaker on purpose? which brings us back to (A)
    I have a 50 warrior 50 rogue and a 50 cleric my cleric is my main its mostly relic on my dps side (id relic/other on my tank side) Warrior has around 1200ap 900crit. Rogue is about the same. Cleric is 2100 self buffed sp 1k sc.

    Warrior running 51 Paragon RB with the current patch level on the beta server does almost 2600. My Rogue I run 51 Blade master 7assassin 8 nightblade. I do around 2400 st dps.
    Cleric running druid I get 2900 I get a little more on shaman but I dont have the crystal.

    My concern here is a warrior with basically 3 weeks of gearing up out damages 5 months worth of gearing up on my cleric. 900 AP/SP difference and it does. For the sake of argument lets ignore crit since my cleric has a little over 100 more then my rogue or my warrior in crit.
    My cleric is 1.38 dps per spell power
    warrior is 2.166 dps per ap
    rogue was right at 2 dps per ap

    Thats the dps disparity we are complaining about. You can fiddle with the numbers anyway you like but when the same person place different classes they have the same raid awareness and the same ability to play.

    So lets normalize these rogues to have the same level of ap as the cleric does.

    Warrior 4548.6
    Rogue 4200
    Cleric 2900

    Rogue is 8% behind warrior
    Cleric is 46% behind.

    I know the dps on the classes dont scale linearly but this is just a quick and dirty to show that rogues and warriors dps is significantly higher than clerics.

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    My cleric is 1.38 dps per spell power
    warrior is 2.166 dps per ap
    rogue was right at 2 dps per ap

    Bingo (you have won a used car, previous owners are warriors, rogues & mages).

    If your like me and will not go near melee it's even worst. I do like what has been done with cabalist but range st clerics need a lift. But it is Beta so classes are getting changed from time to time. Like vex and scourge not stacking anymore :|

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    There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings

    yes but it has been this way for nearly 2 years it should have been sorted out , but still looking the same . but i will not wait much longer not that u care

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.
    ~Daglar
    A status update of what you did today to fix the dps disparity between classes?

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    Okay i ran ID 1 night ago and played several roles.

    I used cabalist and Inquisitor to clear trash, cabalist topped dps for AE damage, Inq, did top ten all be it 9thish

    Was able to tank heal and raid easily in warden sent build also contributed 500ish dps 1st boss.

    Reduced number of healers on second boss to 3 same spec, same result easy peasy

    3rd Ithuziel same 3 healers also rocked same result.

    Maklamos went shaman, 2nd in dps 4600ish

    Ember Conclave back to heals we needed 3

    my question is why are people complaining about cleric dps? Cabalist I can out dps anyone, yes anyone in multi target environment. Shaman can dps with warriors and rogues now that they fix warriors. Forget what you see on dummies, cause you don't fight dummies in game. Use the dummies to set your macros, etc. but jeeebus people, stop living and dying by parse numbers. GO PLAY

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by currly View Post
    Okay i ran ID 1 night ago and played several roles.

    I used cabalist and Inquisitor to clear trash, cabalist topped dps for AE damage, Inq, did top ten all be it 9thish

    Was able to tank heal and raid easily in warden sent build also contributed 500ish dps 1st boss.

    Reduced number of healers on second boss to 3 same spec, same result easy peasy

    3rd Ithuziel same 3 healers also rocked same result.

    Maklamos went shaman, 2nd in dps 4600ish

    Ember Conclave back to heals we needed 3

    my question is why are people complaining about cleric dps? Cabalist I can out dps anyone, yes anyone in multi target environment. Shaman can dps with warriors and rogues now that they fix warriors. Forget what you see on dummies, cause you don't fight dummies in game. Use the dummies to set your macros, etc. but jeeebus people, stop living and dying by parse numbers. GO PLAY
    Your numbers are pretty low, speaking about Shaman, to say we can dps with warriors/rogues. Considering people are pulling 6k in Shaman and still behind Warriors and Mages. We don't need a big tweak, but we do need a slight bump in ST dps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelight View Post
    Your numbers are pretty low, speaking about Shaman, to say we can dps with warriors/rogues. Considering people are pulling 6k in Shaman and still behind Warriors and Mages. We don't need a big tweak, but we do need a slight bump in ST dps.
    I don't think they are pulling those numbers today, they have nerfed the warriors and all. Be careful what you believe and qualify what you hear. I only trust numbers I see. And I could care less what someone links in a parse. Show me in a raid. I feel like if you weren't in the raid seeing that, it didn't happen. Practice dummies mean nothing. Not trying to call anyone out, just saying a lot gets lost in translation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelight View Post
    Considering people are pulling 6k in Shaman and still behind Warriors and Mages. We don't need a big tweak, but we do need a slight bump in ST dps.
    You are assuming that Warriors / Mages are currently the DPS benchmark for other classes, chances are they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by currly View Post
    I don't think they are pulling those numbers today, they have nerfed the warriors and all. Be careful what you believe and qualify what you hear. I only trust numbers I see. And I could care less what someone links in a parse. Show me in a raid. I feel like if you weren't in the raid seeing that, it didn't happen. Practice dummies mean nothing. Not trying to call anyone out, just saying a lot gets lost in translation.
    Your logic is backwards, Raid environments are incredibly unreliable for parse comparisons, differences in buff/debuff uptime, cooldown management and raid comp change dps #s a ton. Parses on Practice Dummies mean a whole lot more than your average Raid Vs Raid comparison.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Chivery View Post
    You are assuming that Warriors / Mages are currently the DPS benchmark for other classes, chances are they are not.
    Well 2 classes are high, 2 classes are low...either way some movement is required and to be honest we don't know the benchmark for what high end ST dps should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chivery View Post
    Your logic is backwards, Raid environments are incredibly unreliable for parse comparisons, differences in buff/debuff uptime, cooldown management and raid comp change dps #s a ton. Parses on Practice Dummies mean a whole lot more than your average Raid Vs Raid comparison.
    Unless you're doing parses on dummies with full raid buffs/debuffs I would disagree. I would imagine balancing is done around those factors rather than a dummy parse since raid buffs/debuffs affect classes differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelight View Post
    Well 2 classes are high, 2 classes are low...either way some movement is required and to be honest we don't know the benchmark for what high end ST dps should be.
    Exactly we don't know the benchmark so maybe Clerics are in perfect shape and the other classes are way overboard? doubtful though!

    I believe in an article on MMORPG, a Dev stated their goal is not to have complete and equal balance across all the souls, but rather have "Sandbox" balancing, where every soul plays in the sandbox, some do better some do worse but all should be viable.

    Say there goal is 10k DPS, Sandbox balacing = any soul should be between 9-11k; not every soul = 10k.

    Unless you're doing parses on dummies with full raid buffs/debuffs I would disagree. I would imagine balancing is done around those factors rather than a dummy parse since raid buffs/debuffs affect classes differently.
    Of course raid scaling is taken into account, but like i said before no 2 raids will have the same comp, the same debuff/buff uptime, or even same strat which may skew parses. IMO, Having a standard for parses ( IE: No consumable dummy parses ) helps in pin pointing broken skills or rotations, more so than a raid vs raid comparison.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chivery View Post
    Your logic is backwards, Raid environments are incredibly unreliable for parse comparisons, differences in buff/debuff uptime, cooldown management and raid comp change dps #s a ton. Parses on Practice Dummies mean a whole lot more than your average Raid Vs Raid comparison.
    My logic is backwards? Your argument is completely senseless. What you say about all the things that go into raid dps, IS what matters. A number you can pull on dummy is just that. A number on a dummy. Until they start making instances full of raid dummies, they will remain just a number. Therefor if I can maintain #2 dps position in fights, on a cleric, in a raid that clears ID, that in and of itself says, cleric dps is fine. Any other argument is moot.

    Finally, let me say again, Trion has made it abundantly clear that dps, healing, support, and tanking, will be balanced among the classes that can provide the roles. Trion has done nothing but show over and over this is and will remain their priority. Meaning a post you read today claiming XXXX dps, was written 3 days ago, about a parse 2 days before that, and has since been altered twice by Trion. So can we please stop all "the sky is falling" postings. Take a step back and look at the big picture.

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