Warriors vs Rogue rotations

[Vin]

Over the course of all the changes, Rogues have gotten most of their 2 combo point abilities changed to 1 combo point. For the most part, Rogues are back to the slow 6 second rotation of 5 builders + 1 finisher. Why this was done I really don't know because there was nothing wrong with them. But Warriors on the other hand have the same standard 6 second rotation of 3 builders + 1 finisher at 1.5 seconds except all their top builds are much faster then that. Paragon has Weapon Master which gives them a free attack point every rotation which makes their total rotation 4.5 seconds. Champion has Disruptive Strike that gives 2 attack points for again 4.5 second rotations. Riftblade has off GCD finishers for again 4.5 seconds. You can say that Rogues have Bladedancer which has Precision Strike which gives 2 combo points at no cooldown. But for some strange reason, Precision Strike does less damage then a single combo point builder while the Warriors Disruptive Strike does more damage then their single attack point abilities. Gee....

What Im asking is, why have Rogues had their rotation delibritly extended back to the 6 second rotation for the most part while Warriors are still at 4.5 seconds?

[Techie Will]

Rogues need five builders then a finisher.

Warriors need three builders then a finisher.

That's your reason behind 6s compared to 4.5.

[Vin]

Rogues need five builders then a finisher.

Warriors need three builders then a finisher.

That's your reason behind 6s compared to 4.5.

Not sure what you're trying to get at but Im asking why the intended equal rotation duration between the two classes is no longer equal...

[Mirimon]

really though.. something soo fast and agile.. should take less time than the plate wearing behemoth to strike with such a critically damage blow as a "finisher", in fact.. a rogue traditionally only strikes when it is the fiinishing blow.. as having to pummel something repeatedly in melee over a long period of time is not the best thing for somebody who is more likely to be killed in an out right confrontation, for somebody who has far less health and mitigation.

Take into account that simple fact.. that rogue have less armor, less health, but more speed and agility.. the concept should more closely resemble a short builder to finisher rotation, with nearly every hit being a critical one.

perhaps that is the key? either have very devistating finishers, or far less time spent "building up" only to something slightly more damaging...

[Primalthirst]

3 Builders + Finisher = 3*1.5 + 1.5 = 6s
5 Builders + Finisher = 5*1 + 1= 6s

Learn basic math.

[Cyler]

3 Builders + Finisher = 3*1.5 + 1.5 = 6s
5 Builders + Finisher = 5*1 + 1= 6s

Learn basic math.

He stated that most rogue builders that did generate 2 CPs now only generate 1, and most warriors builds generate 2 CPs or get a free one every rotation. 5*1 + 1 = 6, 2*1.5 + 1.5= 4.5.

Learn basic reading.

[Primalthirst]

He stated that most rogue builders that did generate 2 CPs now only generate 1, and most warriors builds generate 2 CPs or get a free one every rotation. 5*1 + 1 = 6, 2*1.5 + 1.5= 4.5.

Learn basic reading.

Touche, guess I misread.

Regardless it is completely irrelevant how long your rotation cycle is, DPS is going to be balanced around existing rotations so it's not an issue at all.

[Vin]

Well if you want to talk about dps then Paragon gets a 61pt cooldown that reduces their global cooldown to by 0.5 seconds for 15 seconds. Thats 5 rotations for 3 seconds each. Rogues wont get anything that will increase their DPS as much as that cooldown will. Rogues arent really Rogues if they're not fast... having a slow rotation sucks.

[Temo]

Only remember MM 61 point skill (mainly play ranged) which is Free Recoil, which will give you a 15 second rotation of Empowered Shot and a finisher. How many rotations is that?

[wyrmtail]

Free Recoil only works on 1 finisher and you have 15s to use it. Refresh is 21sec....

[wyrmtail]

With that stated...

With balanced DPS across all the classes I do not see how it truely matters how you get to the end result. This is what makes each of the classes unique.

Not to mention not all Rogue roles require 5 actions to reach a finisher.
i.e. Assassin can reach it in as little as 2
MM in as little as 1
Ranger is almost always between 3-4
Sabo can get to 5 in 1 (not to mention traps and bombs)

I think it is a bold statement assuming warriors have it 'easier' than rogues. Though I do admit the BD rotation is rather complicated to keep up without the use of add-ons such as KaruulAlert. Actually most rogue rotations now require the use of add-ons to even play the builds efficiently.

[Durango]

Only remember MM 61 point skill (mainly play ranged) which is Free Recoil, which will give you a 15 second rotation of Empowered Shot and a finisher. How many rotations is that?

This is incorrect.

[Vin]

Again Marksman doesnt mean squat because it will not be a top spec because its ranged.

[Temo]

This is incorrect.

You cannot do rotations with only Empowered Shot and finishers for 15 seconds long? Then how does it work? Because the way I read it, finishers will take 2 points and MM finishers will make Empowered Shot instant cast, so you can make rotations with only ES and finishers, no?

[Weenz]

Well if you want to talk about dps then Paragon gets a 61pt cooldown that reduces their global cooldown to by 0.5 seconds for 15 seconds. Thats 5 rotations for 3 seconds each. Rogues wont get anything that will increase their DPS as much as that cooldown will. Rogues arent really Rogues if they're not fast... having a slow rotation sucks.

If you are going to talk about warrior cooldowns (something a warrior has not had in the entire of 1.0) And then blatenly ignore the Blade dancer CD Dualsim that gives their moves the ability to hit 2 times, and add an extra combo point, it reduces your rotation to 3 builder + finisher = 4 seconds.

Assassin has Serpent strike, not to mention thread of death which lets you do a stealth move every 15 seconds that adds *3* combo points if specced right

Rift stalker has shadow blitz+ shadow stalk

Marksmen lets you do an empowered shot EVERY rotation

Ranger has moves to give extra combo points too

Nightblade gets a fiery spike every rotation if done correctly

You get my point. Anyway, warriors using 3 cd's in their rotation is nothing new. Most warrior specs before 1.11 used 3 gcd's to get 3 ap and a finisher off.

And if you want to talk about fair, why is it fair that paragon cannot use anything between the builder and the follow up attack, yet blade dancer can?
Hint, its called class balance

[Bellcross]

And if you want to talk about fair, why is it fair that paragon cannot use anything between the builder and the follow up attack, yet blade dancer can?
Hint, its called class balance

OH Thank you, someone has a brain... I see bitching about Rogues having harder rotations but really, if Warriors hit a builder we can hit nothing but a follow up after if we're in the Paragon Spec, which is a load of trash now since it's no longer even a viable Top DPS Spec, which is ironic considering it's meant to be the ST DPS Soul.

Rotations are so strict that we can't even break it to do other stuff, any disconnects will result in you either losing a good chunk of your DPS or completely destroying you. Oh I have an interrupt in the Paragon Soul, but guess what I can't even mix that in without PERFECT timing (When I did not just use a builder).

[Mirimon]

OH Thank you, someone has a brain... I see bitching about Rogues having harder rotations but really, if Warriors hit a builder we can hit nothing but a follow up after if we're in the Paragon Spec, which is a load of trash now since it's no longer even a viable Top DPS Spec, which is ironic considering it's meant to be the ST DPS Soul.

Rotations are so strict that we can't even break it to do other stuff, any disconnects will result in you either losing a good chunk of your DPS or completely destroying you. Oh I have an interrupt in the Paragon Soul, but guess what I can't even mix that in without PERFECT timing (When I did not just use a builder).

which is all ironic since it does as much as 2x the dps of top rogue builds...... that irony.. sneaks up on ya..

warrior terms:
Viable= means doing top dps, no less
Balance= Means being overpowered
Nerf= means they fixed something broken
Fix= Means they buffed or accidentally broke something to be beneficial to dps parses.
Rotation= being able to macro everything needed in into 1 button
Solo Viability= means wanting massive self healing even though they can pull 20k+ st hits and 40k aoe dps..
Mobility= Must have the most openers and closers in the game, otherwise it's "lacking"


long have warriors talked about their "craft" with terms and verbage to imply some concept of scientific thought, though the reality is that most don't have a clue where their dps numbers are really coming from. From back when reflective/repercussive dmg buffs would do 75%-80 of the dmg for them, hitting 30+ times or so for every 5-6 hits from an opponent, to erroneous and massively unwarranted multipliers to all of their dmg abilities causing outrageous damage in a single strike.

get over it people.. help fix your own classes first before we start crying about how somebody else got ice cream and we didn't. We know we are the black sheep here, work on changing that bit and less on how OP warrior is, one more beta event to iron things out.

[Muspel]

If you are going to talk about warrior cooldowns (something a warrior has not had in the entire of 1.0) And then blatenly ignore the Blade dancer CD Dualsim that gives their moves the ability to hit 2 times, and add an extra combo point, it reduces your rotation to 3 builder + finisher = 4 seconds.

Actually, Bladedancer continues to use four builders during Dualism, building to six combo points. QS->KS->QS->KS->Finisher lets you fit two off-hand attacks into the next Deadly Dance sequence. If you leave off that last KS, you lose out on a significant amount of damage.

I'd argue that Bladedancer is a poor point of comparison, anyways, given that builders make up the bulk of its damage (while most rogue specs are more centered on finishers).

[Mirimon]

7.2k st dps in greens at 50... Trash tempest is not. 10k st dps as melee in id with live wariors.. vs rogue at 6-6.5k... Nope.. nothing imbalanced there.