+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 66

Thread: Warden is not an icar replacement

  1. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    And why is that? We had trade-offs going:

    1. You want crazy high ST healing? You have no DPS, healing soul.
    2. You want crazy high raid healing? You have less DPS. Senticar.
    3. You want crazy high dps? You have little to no healing, DPS soul.
    4. You want moderate ST DPS and decent healing? You have crappy DPS but good on-demand raid healing. Inquisicar.
    5. You want moderate AoE DPS and decent healing? You have decent AoE DPS and you need to figure out a way to get convictions for raid healing: Cabicar

    None was "the best." Each had a role. Each had trade-offs. Please, oh please, do explain why these two builds needed a swift death. In general, Chloros were favorable, and they will still probably do significantly more DPS. And Bards are now significantly better. I see no logical reasoning as to why two of the best builds in the game were removed with nothing to replace them.

    [Edit]
    Not much to add other than OMG JMerlin I missed you so much from the live forums. One of the few voices of reason from clerics of past.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Noriega View Post
    But not senticar level consistent healing or ST healing. Sounds like a trade off.
    Easily as consistent as Senticar, since the majority of time Senticars don't even need to use Healing Communion. The only difference really is Light Makes Right, and some people don't even take that in senticar :boggle:

    Tradeoffs are not simply one for one, some things are worth more than others, and Healing Invocations on the tank are not worth much (as they completely interrupt your raid healing and DPS). Extra Righteous Mandate healing on the tank by Inquisicar is worth even less but makes up some of the difference. Doing 2k DPS while providing all of the raid healing needed in many fights (combined with a chloro usually) on the other hand is worth quite a bit. It comes down to the same thing I always end up at, which is that you only need a certain amount of healing but you can always use more DPS.

  3. #23
    Warden in its current state requires you to judge priorities for when to dps and when to heal.

    For content where you're "not sure" if you need the extra healing but you still want to provide a little hps, you can spam Geyser in-between hots. Or, if you know there is no downtime you can make sure to refresh Call of the Depths as it is a very high-damage DoT.

    Geyser is of course the safe option. If you can't find any more hots to refresh (only ones to speak of are Healing Spray, Soothing Stream, and Healing Flood), then you can just spam Geyser until tank/raid damage occurs.
    <Vendetta>

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    Easily as consistent as Senticar, since the majority of time Senticars don't even need to use Healing Communion. The only difference really is Light Makes Right, and some people don't even take that in senticar :boggle:

    Tradeoffs are not simply one for one, some things are worth more than others, and Healing Invocations on the tank are not worth much (as they completely interrupt your raid healing and DPS). Extra Righteous Mandate healing on the tank by Inquisicar is worth even less but makes up some of the difference. Doing 2k DPS while providing all of the raid healing needed in many fights (combined with a chloro usually) on the other hand is worth quite a bit. It comes down to the same thing I always end up at, which is that you only need a certain amount of healing but you can always use more DPS.
    1. HI was never really hard casted. You either had a Serendipity proc (if you were deep enough into sentinel), or you used TTL to get an instant cast. You primarily were spamming EJ to get epic splashing/shield procs along with convictions (2 on crits on AoE = win) and spamming DoL/HC if no convictions. It's a raid healing build that CAN heal a tank, but most people don't use it for that, and it scales epicly with adds, which is one category where it shines over inquisicar.

    2. Your DPS in a high-dps icar spec is a direct trade-off with your healing. One DoL = big DPS loss. At the maximum conviction -> DoL conversion, you can't sustain more than 1000 DPS. Chloros did both more healing AND more dps. The upside was that when not spamming DoL, you can do more DPS than Chloros. It's a trade-off.

    3. You literally just explained why inquisicar was popular. EVERY RAID IN THIS GAME IS COMPLETELY BALANCED AROUND DPS CHECKS. Healing is never finally as difficult as it is in pre-nerf testing, in which inquisicars, senticars, and pure healers are just constantly raid healing (seriously, K&P, Inwar, Maelforge, and Laethys did some serious raid damage). The problem with having ONLY dpsers and ONLY healers is that you can't dynamically throttle back on the healing and ramp up the DPS. You have a fixed amount of healing, with healers capable of pouring mana into massive heals when needed, but they're always just healing. Inquisicar let you alleviate some of the difficulty of raid healing from pure healers and at all other times be pushing DPS. This got nerfed WRT actual DPS souls with the addition of MoA, since pure DPS builds got a huge DPS increase while inquisicar, which relied on MoH, didn't, which was fine.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    1. HI was never really hard casted. You either had a Serendipity proc (if you were deep enough into sentinel), or you used TTL to get an instant cast. You primarily were spamming EJ to get epic splashing/shield procs along with convictions (2 on crits on AoE = win) and spamming DoL/HC if no convictions. It's a raid healing build that CAN heal a tank, but most people don't use it for that, and it scales epicly with adds, which is one category where it shines over inquisicar.
    Soul Drain/Circle of Oblivion provide massive tank healing when adds are involved, Senticar cannot match it.

    2. Your DPS in a high-dps icar spec is a direct trade-off with your healing. One DoL = big DPS loss. At the maximum conviction -> DoL conversion, you can't sustain more than 1000 DPS. Chloros did both more healing AND more dps. The upside was that when not spamming DoL, you can do more DPS than Chloros. It's a trade-off.
    Chloros do not do more DPS, not even close, unless they similarly are forgoing healing to spam Fireball. They can not even come close to the on-demand spike healing ability of any icar (other than Cabicar perhaps), either. Wardens will be filling this role now (provided they manage their mana properly).

    3. You literally just explained why inquisicar was popular. EVERY RAID IN THIS GAME IS COMPLETELY BALANCED AROUND DPS CHECKS. Healing is never finally as difficult as it is in pre-nerf testing, in which inquisicars, senticars, and pure healers are just constantly raid healing (seriously, K&P, Inwar, Maelforge, and Laethys did some serious raid damage). The problem with having ONLY dpsers and ONLY healers is that you can't dynamically throttle back on the healing and ramp up the DPS. You have a fixed amount of healing, with healers capable of pouring mana into massive heals when needed, but they're always just healing. Inquisicar let you alleviate some of the difficulty of raid healing from pure healers and at all other times be pushing DPS. This got nerfed WRT actual DPS souls with the addition of MoA, since pure DPS builds got a huge DPS increase while inquisicar, which relied on MoH, didn't, which was fine.
    You literally just explained why Inquisicar is so powerful. Also, Mien of Aggression is hardly a "huge DPS increase", it certainly does not offset the power of DoL.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Xillean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    Soul Drain/Circle of Oblivion provide massive tank healing when adds are involved, Senticar cannot match it.

    Chloros do not do more DPS, not even close, unless they similarly are forgoing healing to spam Fireball. They can not even come close to the on-demand spike healing ability of any icar (other than Cabicar perhaps), either. Wardens will be filling this role now (provided they manage their mana properly).

    You literally just explained why Inquisicar is so powerful. Also, Mien of Aggression is hardly a "huge DPS increase", it certainly does not offset the power of DoL.
    This ^ I liked Senticar and loved my Inquisicar but come on did any one really not expect to see it get nerfed? Dol was far to powerful and im happy with what im seeing so far. Warden was fun for me and the dps felt fairly good, however I agree with Byona that all they have really done so far is take our dol op and turn it into the harbinger chloro. I am not saying im thrilled with how little the traditional hybrids seem to heal now, but Dol was op as hell and something needed to be done imo.
    Guild Master for The Reckoning (Guardian)- Faeblight
    Content Manager for Rift Craft
    50/50 Prestige Rank | PA: 606 | Score: 7530
    Guardian Characters: Xillean R50 Cleric, Kattie R50 Rogue, Mayladen R45 Mage, Eylisa R25 Warrior | Defiant Characters: Phantasmal R20 Warrior, Jillean 15 Cleric

  7. #27
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    18
    One of the things I keep reading about warden is that it has really nice DPS now. Is 1200 st dps really all that great? There's only like 5 DPS abilities in warden so I don't see how wrong I could be doing it.

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    Soul Drain/Circle of Oblivion provide massive tank healing when adds are involved, Senticar cannot match it.
    Senticar can't do sustained high-HPS tank healing with adds, but there are very few cases where this point is relevant. But an inquisicar can never match the raw raid HPS of a senticar, not even spamming DoL. And Inquisicar tank healing isn't comparable to pure tank healing. There are still trade-offs, and the reparation heals on the raid from even constant CoO isn't useful except in 1 fight, and it's a mini boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    Chloros do not do more DPS, not even close, unless they similarly are forgoing healing to spam Fireball. They can not even come close to the on-demand spike healing ability of any icar (other than Cabicar perhaps), either. Wardens will be filling this role now (provided they manage their mana properly).
    Check parses sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    You literally just explained why Inquisicar is so powerful. Also, Mien of Aggression is hardly a "huge DPS increase", it certainly does not offset the power of DoL.
    It's also why Justicar off-tanking was so powerful, and why Senticar was so powerful. DoL wasn't the reason. Inquisicar had versatility, it wasn't a build that could only do 1 thing. If this was a BAD THING, then surely Warden wouldn't be doing DPS, and neither would Bards. So it's apparent the devs don't think being able to do 2 things is a bad thing, they just apparently think that being able to decide which thing you're doing is bad. That is, they want it to require far less skill. Being able to decide "I should DoL now" or "I should DPS now" is what makes a good player. When your only choice is "I should just spam this rotation" -- the skill factor disappears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xillean View Post
    This ^ I liked Senticar and loved my Inquisicar but come on did any one really not expect to see it get nerfed? Dol was far to powerful and im happy with what im seeing so far. Warden was fun for me and the dps felt fairly good, however I agree with Byona that all they have really done so far is take our dol op and turn it into the harbinger chloro. I am not saying im thrilled with how little the traditional hybrids seem to heal now, but Dol was op as hell and something needed to be done imo.
    If it was OP, Wardens would have never had a reason to use Downpour. It had trade-offs.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    Inquisicar had versatility, it wasn't a build that could only do 1 thing. If this was a BAD THING, then surely Warden wouldn't be doing DPS, and neither would Bards.
    Neither of these can compare with the DPS of Inquisicar.

    Anyway it's rather moot to argue about as it's not coming back. If anything would be made viable again it would be Senticar.

  10. #30
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    9
    IMO Icar builds cuased more problems with the cleric souls then it provided fixes for. Face it as long as we had icar our dps would NEVER be aloud to be comparable with other classes. It was far to easy to just drop 11- 15 points into justicar and have insane healing.

    Also did anyone else find it weird or even crazy that our tank soul could do that much healing?

  11. #31
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    18
    Face it as long as we had icar our dps would NEVER be aloud to be comparable with other classes.
    Well expect this hasn't changed any yet. Clerics are still way behind in DPS.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dead2soon View Post
    Well expect this hasn't changed any yet. Clerics are still way behind in DPS.
    From what I can tell it's more than Warriors are way ahead in DPS. Give it a few patches.

  13. #33
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    From what I can tell it's more than Warriors are way ahead in DPS. Give it a few patches.
    How long have Clerics been hearing that now?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dead2soon View Post
    How long have Clerics been hearing that now?
    How long have clerics had icars

  15. #35
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by dead2soon View Post
    Well expect this hasn't changed any yet. Clerics are still way behind in DPS.
    I didnt have much of a chance to raid or grp with some Great warriors, but I was able to with some rogues and mages. I was even or above them a good portion of the time.

    The point is Icar was a problem, you can try to come up with reasons it wasnt OP But the bottom line is ICAR was a tank soul that gave us Isane healing with Great DPS. ITs time has come and gone if you cant adjust yourself to the changes then well theres the door.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinnz View Post
    I know a few guildies who will be ecstatic about this
    Rogue heals are total garbage compared to 1 Cleric spamming healing communion.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Vin View Post
    Rogue heals are total garbage compared to 1 Cleric spamming healing communion.
    Still gonna make em heal

  18. #38
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3
    To those of you complaining about the Warden's ST dps, try out Oversaturate in the next beta weekend. It feels pretty broken at the moment. Proccing a 400dmg tick each time a nearby person is healed. So you put up that, healing flood, and spam Geyser and in a 5man group it's like 1200 ST dps. in a 20man raid if everyone is close enough, it could be something like a 10k DPS without using dots. Oversaturate feels broken as hell. I didn't use it based off the tool tip, but I tried it out in a dungeon and it was very powerful. Unfortunately reparation doesn't proc it, so you can't have #1 dps from a cleric based on healing support, lol.

  19. #39
    Junior Member Lubia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    France / Paris
    Posts
    14
    It wont proc on each tick but on the first tick of the hots.
    Cleric Lubia@Conspiracy ID conq.

  20. #40
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deviancy View Post
    To those of you complaining about the Warden's ST dps, try out Oversaturate in the next beta weekend. It feels pretty broken at the moment. Proccing a 400dmg tick each time a nearby person is healed. So you put up that, healing flood, and spam Geyser and in a 5man group it's like 1200 ST dps. in a 20man raid if everyone is close enough, it could be something like a 10k DPS without using dots. Oversaturate feels broken as hell. I didn't use it based off the tool tip, but I tried it out in a dungeon and it was very powerful. Unfortunately reparation doesn't proc it, so you can't have #1 dps from a cleric based on healing support, lol.
    True I was not taking this into consideration and is a good point.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts