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Thread: After one beta weekend down...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelight View Post
    Tuning isn't set I wouldn't get too worried about it. If we are still in this place a week out from release...then yeah I would worry. I do believe they are going to nerf the 5k+ dps specs, especially the easy rotation ones
    Quote Originally Posted by xBehemothx View Post
    I am not worried about the dps, its still in testing, and they have weeks to change it.
    Don't hold your breath, at this point, small tweaks and and bug fixes aren't going to make up for the gap in dps.

    unless you've forgotten how in almost every patch cycle for the past year and a half so far it has gone something like this:

    PTS/beta testing > clerics identify that we are balanced too weak > "there's no way it can go live like this" > patch goes live exactly how it is > 2 or 3 months later clerics are hotfix buffed but still weaker than all the other classes

    main case in point: justicars, have been through multiple rounds of fixes and we STILL take considerably more damage and have considerably lower HP than warriors and rogues. It's better than it was before but no matter what happens in test phase, clerics are always underpowered.


    now that every class has 3 roles, you can't claim that clerics are balanced with "jack of all trades, master of none" because every other class gets to be "master of all trades"

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Redcrux View Post
    Don't hold your breath, at this point, small tweaks and and bug fixes aren't going to make up for the gap in dps.

    unless you've forgotten how in almost every patch cycle for the past year and a half so far it has gone something like this:

    PTS/beta testing > clerics identify that we are balanced too weak > "there's no way it can go live like this" > patch goes live exactly how it is > 2 or 3 months later clerics are hotfix buffed but still weaker than all the other classes

    main case in point: justicars, have been through multiple rounds of fixes and we STILL take considerably more damage and have considerably lower HP than warriors and rogues. It's better than it was before but no matter what happens in test phase, clerics are always underpowered.


    now that every class has 3 roles, you can't claim that clerics are balanced with "jack of all trades, master of none" because every other class gets to be "master of all trades"
    I understand your point but when they come out and say on these forums their goal is more of a DPS balance, kind of don't have a choice except believe it until proven other wise. I don't agree with your stance on Justicar tanks, we take more pure physical damage than Warriors but not non-physical...we certainly don't take more damage than rogue tanks...go compare rogue damage on Ituziel to Clerics, Clerics are much more stable.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelight View Post
    I understand your point but when they come out and say on these forums their goal is more of a DPS balance, kind of don't have a choice except believe it until proven other wise. I don't agree with your stance on Justicar tanks, we take more pure physical damage than Warriors but not non-physical...we certainly don't take more damage than rogue tanks...go compare rogue damage on Ituziel to Clerics, Clerics are much more stable.
    As Bluelight says, the difference this time is they have come out publicly and said all classes should be balanced off of each other in their given rolls.

    Clerics have the biggest gap to close so it will take longer for them to close that gap. Let's see how things are near the end of beta. The best thing we can do for now is to test test test and post what we are seeing.

  4. #24
    I am still trying to absorb all the new information this weekend provided and come to some internal consensus how I feel about it all. I will only speak for myself when I say that there are some things I am excited about, and some things I will miss terribly.

    That said, I suspect I am not the only one that will find peace with how the new cleric *functions* in terms of itself, but gets a horrible horrible sinking feeling when trying to consider how it fits into the larger picture.

    While some souls like Inquisitor have their DPS up significantly from Live (which I was initially very happy about), unless other classes get some very dramatic DPS nerfs very soon, our DPS is going to be useless and unwanted at raids when we could be replaced by someone who could easily double what we could do.

    I've been through plenty of betas over a lot of years, and while I've seen a whole lot of tweaks and fixes over the final 6 weeks before a release, dramatic changes are something I've yet to see, so I don't share the optimism that some here seem to have that everything is gonna be balanced to our liking before the live release.

    I sincerely hope Trion proves my fears unfounded on this count and gives me more reason to be optimistic in the future.

    While I need more time with both Warden and Purifier yet to come to a better understanding of each class, both are something I can be happy with. Warden especially. Purifier looks really strong but we'd rarely ever use more than one at a raid. ...the same with Tanks, while I put together a tank build and at least from a stats perspective I had to smile, I haven't gotten to see it in action yet...however realistically speaking, at least in my guild, cleric tanks get limited use at best....again, more than one at any given raid would surprise me.

    One thing I am still unclear about - do Warden HoTs stack with other Wardens' HoTs nowadays? with the reemergence of the Warden as a premier healing class, if our hots don't stack with other warden hots, this will irritate me all over again even though Healing Effusion and other direct heals will still clearly stack.

    For all the talk about how -icars needed to die, the -icar spec gave DPS/Icar hybrids a valuable spot at raids, allowing respectable DPS to switch to respectable AE healing on a dime. While a DPS/Icar hyrbid wasn't top of the class at either, the ability to do both from the same spec gave us a place when we were not tanking or pure healing.

    I used to solo as an -icar, but now Defiler will fill that slot nicely. Defiler could use a DPS bump, particularly vs single target (although I can see how it is complicated to raise single target DPS without messing with multi-target DPS too much with Defiler)...but as a solo soul, it is enjoyable and has enough flexibility to be viable. I can't see it as a raiding soul however. I know plenty of folks are trying to find ways to squeeze it into a raiding build, but I really just don't see it.

    I'm starting to ramble, but I'll end with this:

    With the death of the -icar, if our DPS isn't well and truly on par with every other classes DPS, it is going to be a very very discouraging time to be a cleric. Particularly a raiding cleric.

    Please give me reason in the next few weeks to be optimistic about the future of Clerics in Rift. I want to feel good about being a cleric again. I want people to look at Rift and *want* to play a cleric.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaiah Reece View Post

    I've been through plenty of betas over a lot of years, and while I've seen a whole lot of tweaks and fixes over the final 6 weeks before a release, dramatic changes are something I've yet to see, so I don't share the optimism that some here seem to have that everything is gonna be balanced to our liking before the live release.

    Lol clerics hag major sweeping changes in just about every beta week during rifts initial beta. So i wouldnt worry about that.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Noriega View Post
    Lol clerics hag major sweeping changes in just about every beta week during rifts initial beta. So i wouldnt worry about that.
    And yet here we are. I suppose we will see.

    Like I said, I really hope Trion gives me reason to be optimistic on this count, but I'm past being optimistic on sheer hope alone.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Elijah's Avatar
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    My personal Feedback to the Cleric Souls:

    Defiler: Very fun soul at all, have played him mostly in instances as a healer or in hunting rifts and instand adventues as a subsoul for more dmg, dot`s and the beacon.
    Have started a new Character which i would level as a Defiler and iam very curious how he will be in the first levels.
    The class base idea is very interesting hope he will not change so much at all

    Purifer: My first healing Soul, i love him <3, when i get level 50, i have played him all the time through all raids as the tankhealer, any i love the changes he will get, absorb, absorb, absorb its so amazing
    The only thing i dont understand is, why the overheal go out in damage not anymore in group heal, but thats ok, i have take a warden as a subsoul to manage the group heal with the full purifer.
    iam so curious how he will be at the higher level and at last at level 60 *cant wait*

    Warden: Yes, the warden have produced the wow effect on me, so much group heal and a nice dps, if needed, have played him most in exodus and the last boss is no problem with a full warden. (at ID gear), will test him more at the next time i can play the char.

    Inquisitor: I have played him in a level spec, it makes a lot of fun with the beacon from the defiler, set up the beacon, dot on mobs around a bit souldrain, a bit bound fate and thats it, makes a lot of fun to me and will be my leveling soul on release i guess.

    Yeah i could not test the other souls, but i hope there will be some time to do that

    At all i can say, big thanks for the healing soul changes, i like them all and cant wait to play them again !!!

    I know all that can change again but its a very good direction so far.
    (Maybe i will write more these days, have to work up all the changes and new informations in my head :P)

    Best wishes!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcrux View Post
    Don't hold your breath, at this point, small tweaks and and bug fixes aren't going to make up for the gap in dps.

    unless you've forgotten how in almost every patch cycle for the past year and a half so far it has gone something like this:

    PTS/beta testing > clerics identify that we are balanced too weak > "there's no way it can go live like this" > patch goes live exactly how it is > 2 or 3 months later clerics are hotfix buffed but still weaker than all the other classes

    main case in point: justicars, have been through multiple rounds of fixes and we STILL take considerably more damage and have considerably lower HP than warriors and rogues. It's better than it was before but no matter what happens in test phase, clerics are always underpowered.


    now that every class has 3 roles, you can't claim that clerics are balanced with "jack of all trades, master of none" because every other class gets to be "master of all trades"
    I have to agree with red here. Trion has had a horrible track record of listening to the cleric community with regards to DPS.

    I didn't see hardly any difference between Inq on beta and Inq on live. Best I could pull out of Inq was about 2800 over a 5 minute parse on a clean dummy with a 51 inq and like 15 in defilier, similarly geared players in my guild from other callings are easily pulling at least 50% more then this in there dps builds.

    Also don't get me started on Druid. I pumped 51 points into druid, and 15 into shaman, fired up Karuuls (which was lite like a gd x-mas tree the whole time) and the best i could pull out of it was about 2600 (all i had for a 2 hander was beacon so it was less then optimal) then i had to deal with carpal-tunnel for about 4 hours after a 5 minute parse.

    Then there's the issue of taking out our Icar builds. Now I understand why they wanted to get rid of it and that's all fine, but I was under the impression that Defiler or warden was going to fill the niche of hybrid HPS/DPS but this is not the case.

    Defiler seems very weak in both healing and DPS, the stacking healing ability seems to heal for far to less and the ability that burns those stacks is pretty weak as well. The links just don't seem like there really absorbing a whole lot of damage and there is very little raid healing utility in the soul. Never not once when I was playing defiler did I feel I was taking any amount of damage from the links that would even consider having to use even one of myriad of self healing abilities.

    Warden I didn't get a chance to play, but we had another cleric playing that and a bard/tact when we made a quick 6 man run through RoTP (only made it past bearhaust then it was time for bed). The bard did about equivalent healing as the warden but was able to pump out about 3x the dps then the warden.

    All in all imo the changes to our dps souls put us right were we are on live now just with a different play style, while all the other callings are reporting huge dps increases. Our healing is about were it was with the exception of loosing our HPS/DPS hybrid. Other callings are now able to fill the DPS/HPS hybrid niche leaving clerics out in the cold without a suitable replacement. I would say 1.11 cleric changes have a long ways to go and in fact we may be better off with what we have on live now. THese changes feel like there going completely in the wrong direction. Like many others have said I to feel foolish for buying a years sub.

  9. #29
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    To sum up the beta weekend for me -
    Inquisitor - Very minor dps change. Gained a very slight dps amount or stayed the same as live. Getting outclassed by Warriors, Mages and Rogues in a big way still.

    Warden - Liked the group healing aspect of it but it lacks flexibility, Low DPS means it soaks up a raid heal spot now.

    Defiler - Heals seemed weak and the dps was mediocre. Seemed pretty average overall. Nothing to write home about.

    Shaman - I enjoyed this a lot as a solo build. Going to be my leveling build.

    Overall I feel like the Cleric class gave up all it's flexibility by losing inquiscar and cabicar specs and gained really nothing. Of all the callings I still feel like Clerics are in the worst place and my confidence that this will be addressed is at an all time low and honestly this is a really good time to switch mains.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquii View Post
    Well I hope you know that Trion only got 43 days left to put the Cleric into the right way?
    Yes i know, but they are finished with warriors, rouges and mages, they only need to fix a few bugs which we noticed in beta.
    Since the defiler reveal hasnt been yet, they have time to completely change it, so on the reveal it may come the complete oposite of what we seen on beta.
    So keeping the faith.

  11. #31
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    My 0.02 summary:-

    Inquisitor changes were overall good for me in terms of playstyle and numbers with the huge exception of Contempt's vastly nerfed healing. There's only so much that killing things slightly faster can do to mitigate that loss in healing

    Druid looks good but I never played it much on Live before so I don't really have anything to compare it with. Satyr tank pet is awesome. I suspect perhaps a touch too awesome.

    Shaman still plays recognisably like it used to, a playstyle I do generally enjoy. Ensuring the business end of my hammer has plenty of customers whilst being a completely different sort of beast to a warrior is one of the reasons I like playing a cleric. I think I've got a nifty levelling spec setup after some fiddling about balancing faster killage with better self-preservation.

    Defiler came up somewhat short, having piddled about with it both as a 50 and as a brand new level 1 levelling up. To be honest, it didn't have nearly the WOW-factor I got out of my Mage's Harbinger, Rogue's Tactician or even Warrior's Tempest - that's accounting for the incoming nerfbats on those souls too. It worked as a secondary soul to Cabalist and Warden somewhat but otherwise I didn't really get on with it so much.

    Cabalist is underwhelming and the playstyle of old is mostly gone, replaced with what I can only describe as a bit of Saboteur. As a personal favourite soul of mine from release, this induced a sadface.

    But overall the whole was very much a different experience than the sum of those parts. Whilst I am a little sad over losing the utility of the usual Inquis/Cabicar specs, the change I'm most disappointed about is the Senticar is no longer worth a damn. It's now a case of Warden/Puri or go home and for someone like me that preferred buzzing about as a Senticar, well that's a giant kick in the teeth. I could play that role as a combo of shaman (Justicar but really, I played it more like a Shaman )/inquisitor/sentinel with poor DPS and lots of HPS and fulfill the healing needs of my small group without standing at the back playing HoT whack-a-mole with the F-keys/mouseovers. Healing styles have been pidgeonholed into the 3 healing souls and that's yer lot. My Cleric feels more like the other callings or more like other game classes (Priests and so on) than a Rift Cleric after the changes. Ironically enough, I think I'll be switching over to my Mage for main heals now, Spores nerf and all, because of the playstyle Harb brings in.

  12. #32
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    I just startted leveling my rouge, and i was suprised that they so many abilities with instant cast time. marksman and ranger.

    So to improve clerics dps, give us some abilities with 1 or 0.5.sec cast time or even instant cast, and reduce the cooldown on abillities, becouse mages have faster ability cooldown, and the dps problem will be resolved. Becouse the fastes cast spell that we have which isnt instant cast is bolt of judgement with 1.5sec cast, which is why we lose so much dps.

    I hit with 3-4k with my cleric, if i spammed a 1sec cast spell or instant cast, then i would have 3-4 dps.
    and not 1500dps with my fully hk geared cleric :/

    and even warriors have almost all of their abilities instant cast.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by xBehemothx View Post
    I just startted leveling my rouge, and i was suprised that they so many abilities with instant cast time. marksman and ranger.

    So to improve clerics dps, give us some abilities with 1 or 0.5.sec cast time or even instant cast, and reduce the cooldown on abillities, becouse mages have faster ability cooldown, and the dps problem will be resolved. Becouse the fastes cast spell that we have which isnt instant cast is bolt of judgement with 1.5sec cast, which is why we lose so much dps.

    I hit with 3-4k with my cleric, if i spammed a 1sec cast spell or instant cast, then i would have 3-4 dps.
    and not 1500dps with my fully hk geared cleric :/

    and even warriors have almost all of their abilities instant cast.
    You dont know that we have 1,5 sec global cooldown?
    A 1 sec casting spell would have 0,5 sec spare time until you can cast again...
    Thats surely not the reason why our dps is lower than other classes

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquii View Post
    You dont know that we have 1,5 sec global cooldown?
    A 1 sec casting spell would have 0,5 sec spare time until you can cast again...
    Thats surely not the reason why our dps is lower than other classes
    i know we had a global cooldown, didnt know how much :P
    But yea, if you reduce the GC and reduce the cast time, it would improbe our dps.
    Im not saying thats the real problem, just trying to figure out what could be the problem to our poor dps.

  15. #35

    Question

    I'm hoping to this point they have not tweaked dps balance at all. Because if they have, I'm very worried. I am still going to give them a chance, but I will be very angry if it Goes live with horrible differences in dps. Im going to hope at this point they've just been making sure abilities worked how they wanted them to. And they are waiting to balance dps last. I really would have thought this close to release it would be somewhat close though, with some minor tweaks to things, or nerfing a spec that wasn't thought of but does way more dps than others.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nooblet View Post
    I'm hoping to this point they have not tweaked dps balance at all. Because if they have, I'm very worried..
    yup, me too.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by xBehemothx View Post
    yup, me too.
    me three

    /10char

  18. #38
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    in a few weeka when the cleric reveals we will see if well still have crap dps, or will they chnge it.

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