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Thread: Warrior elemental mitigation bug report

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    Warrior elemental mitigation bug report

    I'm going to try to include as much information as I have gathered over the past 3 days. In short, I believe I have found a bug with elemental mitigation that is affecting warrior tanks but not rogues (and maybe not cleric tanks either, havent tested with one of them). Further, it MAY just be non-boss mobs, I'm not quite sure as some of the results are just odd.


    I have tested the following specs :

    51pal/5vk/12warlord
    51reaver/5 pal, 12 warlord
    48vk/8pal/12warlord
    33vk/22pal/12 warlord

    In general after using tank buffs from the above specs, I have around 1050+ in every resistance before putting on an element specific sigil. If I use an element specific sigil, I am around 1300+ in that element. That translates to 51% reduction in that element. Also, during combat with the VK build I had full pacts and power from the masses maxed on the test fights.

    Gear :
    I am wearing 4 pieces of ID gear : chest, legs, boots, gloves. HK relic shoulders/belt. Rasmolovs helmet.
    Soulfury, Grugs shield, Thunder shot, brine crusted chain, HK rings, seal, using a +100 resist all cape, etc.

    In general, all tank specs have similar values to the following (this is from 51 pal) :
    Armor : 26346
    str: 662
    dex:425
    end:2049
    Health : 22,555




    Now, for some damage numbers.

    We decided to go into some expert dungeons and have some laughs, first up was Abyssal precipice. Yes, the old expert dungeon, Abyssal precipice.


    This was the damage on me on average, in every tank spec above, including using a damage specific sigil taht added 140+ to that element (see above), meaning a 51% reduction to that elements damage.

    A couple examples --

    Frozen Riptide (the water elemental trash mob) :
    - Breaker (water damage) - Average damage - 2,578
    - Frost blast (water) - average damage - 2,088
    - Icy burst (water) - average damage - 1,170


    Majolic the bloodwalker (boss encounter) :
    - Breaker (water damage) - average damage - 2,324
    - Frost blast (water) - average damage - 2,153



    Next up was Charmers caldera, same thing, changing specs between groups of the exact same mobs, using the best possible sigil for the upcoming damage type, yielding from 46% to 51% reduction in that damage type.


    Ashen elemental(trash mob)
    - lightning strike(air) - average damage, 1,955.
    - Gust(air) - average damage, 1,233.

    Ashstorm elemental(trash mob)
    - Lightning strike(air) - Average damage, 2,427.
    - Jolt(air) - average damage, 2,361.


    I had our rogue tank in the group swap to tank spec to do comparisons on the same packs:

    He has 3 ID pieces, gloves/chest/boots, using the pre-built "planar sentry" spec (53 ES/8 ranger /7 bard). He also has about the same elemental resist, ~1k each element. He never swapped to any element specific sigil.


    Ashen elemental(trash mob)
    - lightning strike(air) - average damage, 1,151.
    - Gust(air) - average damage, 837.

    Ashstorm elemental(trash mob)
    - Lightning strike(air) - Average damage, 1,466.
    - Jolt(air) - average damage, 1,116.


    The above tests were repeated on several packs of identical mobs with the gear/specs/etc above and the results were consistent across encounters.

    Also, another warrior tank, with no ID gear, in all HK gear (same shield/axe/rings/seal, lesser necklace) was brought into Abyssal precipice and we tested tanking on identical mobs, alternating between pulls.

    The other warrior tank ran a 51 pal spec, and the damage numbers for elemental damage were almost identical to my own, the only difference in his damage taken was that he took more physical (less armor/etc).

    During test pulls, there were no damage shields applied from any healer to the respective tank, there were no shared damage abilities used/etc. The tank relied solely on the mitigation provided by his gear/spec/sigil/etc.

    This difference in damage between rogue/war tank was seen across all types of elemental damage.

    So essentially, the warrior tank and rogue tank had extremely similar elemental resist amounts, with the rogue tank taking nearly 50% less elemental damage in all cases, and in many cases taking less than 50% damage from the same elemental attacks by identical mobs.

    Physical mitigation seems to be functioning just fine for all tank types as nothing un-expected was encountered with that.

    Again, I havent compared to a cleric tank on these exact same mobs, but, after seeing these results it looks like something is a bit off for elemental mitigation for warrior tanks, regardless of spec.

    These tests were conducted over all 3 days of beta so far, in the same expert dungeons (AP/CC).

    We also saw the same damage spread show up in things like rift events (Hunt rifts). I took double (or more) the amount of elemental damage from all sources compared to the rogue tank. Its not just AP/CC, its elemental damage in general.

  2. #2
    http://beta.forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?t=5480

    I experienced similar things. Feedback and bugreported it. Something is certainly off with warrior tanking.
    Lemming@Greybriar

  3. #3
    Yes, something is definitely very wrong. As mentioned in other threads I did expert AP and it really hurt. This is a dungeon I am heavily overheated for and one that on live I run only 36 points in tank souls and 2 tank pieces. In beta I was in full 66 tank spec and full tank gear and each pack of mobs were battering me (there is usually a caster or 2 in every pack). Given that I am geared for ID raids I can only imagine what mobs in ID would do to me in the current beta state.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    The numbers you are seeing are explained perfectly in my spreadsheet.

    Warriors have by far the best Phys and by far the worst Non-Phys and Spell mitigation at level 50.
    The field is a lot closer than it has been and is narrowing.

    Now that I have access the Level 60 I'm beginning to start suggesting tuning changes with both levels in mind.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    The numbers you are seeing are explained perfectly in my spreadsheet.

    Warriors have by far the best Phys and by far the worst Non-Phys and Spell mitigation at level 50.
    The field is a lot closer than it has been and is narrowing.

    Now that I have access the Level 60 I'm beginning to start suggesting tuning changes with both levels in mind.
    I actually spoke with Hartsmann and Daglar about it (as well as feedbacking and bugreporting similiar findings in AP and CC). Both of them expressed concern about the pure amount of damage that is being done by mobs. As it stands right now, no fresh 48-50 would be able to survive AP/CC normal, not with a full healer, or maybe even two. I have faith they'll get the balance right.
    Lemming@Greybriar

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    Senior Member Sharog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redius View Post
    I actually spoke with Hartsmann and Daglar about it (as well as feedbacking and bugreporting similiar findings in AP and CC). Both of them expressed concern about the pure amount of damage that is being done by mobs. As it stands right now, no fresh 48-50 would be able to survive AP/CC normal, not with a full healer, or maybe even two. I have faith they'll get the balance right.
    back when i first dinged 50 we have to run 2 healers for experts and even then some fights are very hard to heal, so i dont see your concerns.

    however i do concern if the difference is that much, from the spreadsheet theoretical difference is not double up in dmg taking.

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    I disagree, its a bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    The numbers you are seeing are explained perfectly in my spreadsheet.

    Warriors have by far the best Phys and by far the worst Non-Phys and Spell mitigation at level 50.
    The field is a lot closer than it has been and is narrowing.

    Now that I have access the Level 60 I'm beginning to start suggesting tuning changes with both levels in mind.

    There is no way, in any scenario, that going into an expert dungeon (content nearly a year old), with Infernal Dawn gear and 51% resistance to an element should have an ID level raid tank nearly die from a single trash mob; Its some kind of game calculation error and if its not, it needs some very serious attention.

    In "live", the Inquisitor, with his super beam of destruction after killing the Arcane Porter, hits me for this kind of damage and that is his special ability as a Hammerknell raid-level boss.

    You can see the resist effects of your spec right in the resist numbers, in real time on your character sheet, as your shields/spec abilities go up. I watch them increase and see the theoretical effect of what the mitigation should be.

    This is the important part from my original post : The rogue tank had similar mitigation numbers to my own for each test element, and in some cases, I was using an element specific sigil and had MORE resist to an element than he did.

    He had ~46% mitigation to the test element, I have 46% or MORE (up to 51% reduction).

    So I would argue that they are simply not being applied to the damage coming in on the warrior, a simple math error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoCrows View Post
    There is no way, in any scenario, that going into an expert dungeon (content nearly a year old), with Infernal Dawn gear and 51% resistance to an element should have an ID level raid tank nearly die from a single trash mob; Its some kind of game calculation error and if its not, it needs some very serious attention.

    In "live", the Inquisitor, with his super beam of destruction after killing the Arcane Porter, hits me for this kind of damage and that is his special ability as a Hammerknell raid-level boss.

    You can see the resist effects of your spec right in the resist numbers, in real time on your character sheet, as your shields/spec abilities go up. I watch them increase and see the theoretical effect of what the mitigation should be.

    This is the important part from my original post : The rogue tank had similar mitigation numbers to my own for each test element, and in some cases, I was using an element specific sigil and had MORE resist to an element than he did.

    He had ~46% mitigation to the test element, I have 46% or MORE (up to 51% reduction).

    So I would argue that they are simply not being applied to the damage coming in on the warrior, a simple math error.
    A quick question, are you aware of how much stats youre losing from gift of the reaver/palading/vk in addition to the talents youre sacrificing to get the 12 point WL skill?

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    Senior Member Sharog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seyrie View Post
    A quick question, are you aware of how much stats youre losing from gift of the reaver/palading/vk in addition to the talents youre sacrificing to get the 12 point WL skill?
    pretty sure the difference is very minor if specced in to first tier talent trained defences + defensive posture active.

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    One thing i've noticed in my limited testing i did as a tank. With the changes to player abilities, it seems mobs that used those abilities as well were buffed.

    Example: Expert CC, the wisp mobs that surround the individual Cyclone mob use flame spear. On Live it is just straight fire damage, which I usually partially or fully resist most so is a non-issue. In Beta with the new flame spear you get 6-8 individual DoTs on you from the mobs, which can no longer be fully resisted, and each one was ticking for massive amounts of damage.

    At the end of the run the healer said they never had to heal so hard in their life which made me feel quite inferior as a tank as i felt inept.

    The only saving grace was VK shields being able to stack with cleric shields to soften some of the damage.

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    It has nothing to do with the spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharog View Post
    pretty sure the difference is very minor if specced in to first tier talent trained defences + defensive posture active.
    Sharog is correct: Warlord for defensive posture and the very first tier of skills adds 2.5% to those resistances and yes, defensive posture was active at all times. The "loss" of tank gift bonuses in warlord are offset by defensive posture and the warlord gift bonuses itself.

    I also didnt list all of the specs tried, one had just 5 warlord (for the 2.5% resist). The results were nearly identical (all points spent in paladin/vk).

    Further, the points spent in warlord, if spent in ANY other tank soul (for example paladin) at the tier levels they would have been spent at, will give no direct and massive 50% boost to elemental mitigation that would account for the difference seen in the tests across ALL specs (including those with minor investment into warlord).


    Aside from this, you can see your elemental mitigation, on your character sheet, right under the type.
    Example - Fire : 1035 (44.xx% resistance), etc.

    I keep going back to the resist values as displayed by both tank types. We had nearly identical resist values, and in some cases I had 6-7% more as a warrior tank.

    The tests were conducted on exactly identical mobs, and those mobs were culled such that in some of the tests, they were the only source of damage by anything to the tank. The only thing being done was enough healing to keep the tank alive, with non "shield" type heals. In some tests we let the test mob beat on the tank, exclusively, for an extended time, to observe many damage values.



    There is simply no warrior spec that would account for 50-100% more extra elemental damage being mitigated, none.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    The numbers you are seeing are explained perfectly in my spreadsheet.

    Warriors have by far the best Phys and by far the worst Non-Phys and Spell mitigation at level 50.
    The field is a lot closer than it has been and is narrowing.

    Now that I have access the Level 60 I'm beginning to start suggesting tuning changes with both levels in mind.
    Warrior tanking reverted back to launch. Trion -> This does not work. Warriors must have flat mitigation to be able to tank because both bosses and mobs use both pyshcial and magic damage. Reaver on live is where we will end up in the end. It will just take several months and multiple patches.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Seyrie View Post
    A quick question, are you aware of how much stats youre losing from gift of the reaver/palading/vk in addition to the talents youre sacrificing to get the 12 point WL skill?
    Yes, in fact I posted elsewhere:

    Gift of Paladin/Reaver/Voidknight:
    1.5% Endurance per point
    1% Armour per point
    2% Resist per point
    0.5% damage per point

    Gift of the Warlord:
    0.75% Endurance per point
    0.5% Armour per point
    1% Resist per point
    0.9% Damage per point
    --------------------
    12 more points spent in a tank soul

    18% Endurance
    12% Armour
    24% Resist
    6% Damage

    12 Points in Warlord gives:
    9% Endurance (+10% from Defensive Posture) = 19% Endurance
    6% Armour (+5% from Defensive posture) = 11% Armour
    12% Resist (+5% from Defensive posture) = 17% Resist
    10.8% Damage.

    So a gain of 1% End, a loss of 1% Armour, 7% Resist (reduced to 4.5 if including Talent spend)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asteldian View Post
    Yes, in fact I posted elsewhere:

    Gift of Paladin/Reaver/Voidknight:
    1.5% Endurance per point
    1% Armour per point
    2% Resist per point
    0.5% damage per point

    Gift of the Warlord:
    0.75% Endurance per point
    0.5% Armour per point
    1% Resist per point
    0.9% Damage per point
    --------------------
    12 more points spent in a tank soul

    18% Endurance
    12% Armour
    24% Resist
    6% Damage

    12 Points in Warlord gives:
    9% Endurance (+10% from Defensive Posture) = 19% Endurance
    6% Armour (+5% from Defensive posture) = 11% Armour
    12% Resist (+5% from Defensive posture) = 17% Resist
    10.8% Damage.

    So a gain of 1% End, a loss of 1% Armour, 7% Resist (reduced to 4.5 if including Talent spend)

    Hehe, you got to it before I did Asteldian


    If the gap between warrior numbers and other tank numbers were say 5-10% off? I wouldnt even notice or be concerned.

    50 - 100%? Thats big enough to warrant some focus on the routines applied to damage calculations on warrior tanks to find the bug

  15. #15
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I'm not certain what's going on at this point.

    The difference should be Warriors taking ~15-30% more Spell damage and ~5-15% more Non-Phys damage than Rogues at Level 50 on Beta.

    I'm doing some testing at the moment, buff/debuff stacking may have something to do with it, otherwise certain abilities may not be functioning.

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    It's more than tanking, though. Non-physical mitigation seems to be a bit off as a dps as well, vs standard questing mobs. Far, far less damage incoming vs physical than there is vs casters. To the point that caster invasions are doing 3 to 4 times the damage of their physical dps counterparts.

    I think NPC's are scaling too well as casters, and mitigation is a bit off for warriors. The correct answer might lie somewhere between those two (a rebalancing of both, if you will).
    Wykkyd <Aegis> @Laethys

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