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Thread: To those complaining + Tank feedback

  1. #1
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    To those complaining + Tank feedback

    **Edited, 54 Paladin, 21 Reaver, 1 VK, I was wrong about 12 Warlord as I had misread the Warlord Gift**

    **Everything below is for level 60, aside from the first and second paragraphs**

    For those complaining...it is called an overhaul of the system, and a beta. It is not final. I agree 100% with their addition of abilities even though that it will be difficult without macros. I don't use tank macros, meaning it's possible, so it just takes practice. As as tank, juggling tons of abilities while being able to survive and position mobs/bosses is what it is all about for me and I love it.

    The first thing I would like to mention, is that I do not agree with giving damage to tanks. It seems like a silly idea to me. The true people who play tanks and want to tank are not playing to deal damage, we are playing to be damage soakers and to keep attention of the mob. We do not play for large numbers. This is why I don't understand most of the new abilities which are just simply "deal x amount of y type damage" with no other benefit aside from threat generation. Why not just give us more cool abilities like self heals, absorbs, or group abilities instead?

    Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I wanted to mention a few things. I obviously have not hit level 60, as I can't, but just looking at the trees and building them in my head, there is one that seems superior, and that we will be totally pigeonholed into playing once more. 54 Paladin, 12 Warlord, 10 Reaver. It seems to have the best mitigation, best cooldowns, and best abilities compared to every other spec (correct me if I am wrong and am drastically missing something.

    The 54 point abilities is amazing, as well as the 2 minute self heal, the 15% incoming heal increase, and the 41 point ability. Having two shields on for 3% armor 9% resist and 5% block or swap one of those for 35% damage (which is crazy damage) is also superior to anything else I have seen in a tank tree. Looking at VK, it is next in line for being good, as it has very good utility once more giving it a silence, a knockback, a pull, a cleanse, and a purge, yet the mitigation values still aren't quite right, but the absorption is great. Reaver is well...very lackluster in terms of mitigation it would seem right now, the main sources being binding of death and power from the masses, which is beaten by VK and Paladin.

    The final point I would like to make is that I feel the 12 point warlord ability is way too good, or it needs to be moved further up into the tree. This is mostly pigeonholing players into 12 warlord. A 12 point ability for 5% armor, 5% resist, and 10% endurance is just too good to be true.

    Again, if I drastically missed something within the other specs making them come out superior, please let me know.

    As for my opinion on the increase of abilities for every spec...keep it the way it is. It will make the player base better as a whole if they learn how to use a proper rotation without macros rather than relying on 2-4 buttons.
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    Unlike most QQing on the forums about the CD issue, I 100% agree..

    It's boring how it is right now. Run in, spam blood and boss dies.Taking away the CDs on abilities will just make tanking more fun and keep us awake on the long nights during progression. It will also quickly separate the good from the bad.

    As far as tanks getting damage, we rolled a class that can tank...to tank. We chose a tank spec...to tank. Adding all of the damage abilities is kind of disheartening and I would much rather have other abilities to help our raid instead of having 900DPS on the meter.

    As for the 12 point Warlord posture, It's definitely a HUGE ability and like RoughRaptors said, it will pigeonhole us. But at the same time, I feel that no matter what they do..there will always be a pigeonhole role that will require x amount of points for the FOTM.

    TL;DR Stop being bad and wanting everything in two macros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    The first thing I would like to mention, is that I do not agree with giving damage to tanks. It seems like a silly idea to me. The true people who play tanks and want to tank are not playing to deal damage, we are playing to be damage soakers and to keep attention of the mob. We do not play for large numbers. This is why I don't understand most of the new abilities which are just simply "deal x amount of y type damage" with no other benefit aside from threat generation. Why not just give us more cool abilities like self heals, absorbs, or group abilities instead?
    My first thoughts when seeing all the new changes, I don't care about damage.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certh View Post
    It's boring how it is right now. Run in, spam blood and boss dies.Taking away the CDs on abilities will just make tanking more fun and keep us awake on the long nights during progression. It will also quickly separate the good from the bad.
    Speaking in the abstract, making tanking more challenging is also contrary to the overall interests of the game. Although dedicated tanks argue for it, there's just not enough players who excel in tanking to meet the needs of the playerbase at large. The simpler tanking is, the more people are going to be willing to take that role (even if it's not one they prefer to play all of the time). And as long as Rift sticks with the "holy trinity" concept, you're stuck with a practical problem: how do you encourage more players to take the role of the tank so that everyone else gets a reasonable shot at completing group content?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    **Everything below is for level 60, aside from the first and second paragraphs**

    For those complaining...it is called an overhaul of the system, and a beta. It is not final. I agree 100% with their addition of abilities even though that it will be difficult without macros. I don't use tank macros, meaning it's possible, so it just takes practice. As as tank, juggling tons of abilities while being able to survive and position mobs/bosses is what it is all about for me and I love it.

    The first thing I would like to mention, is that I do not agree with giving damage to tanks. It seems like a silly idea to me. The true people who play tanks and want to tank are not playing to deal damage, we are playing to be damage soakers and to keep attention of the mob. We do not play for large numbers. This is why I don't understand most of the new abilities which are just simply "deal x amount of y type damage" with no other benefit aside from threat generation. Why not just give us more cool abilities like self heals, absorbs, or group abilities instead?

    Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I wanted to mention a few things. I obviously have not hit level 60, as I can't, but just looking at the trees and building them in my head, there is one that seems superior, and that we will be totally pigeonholed into playing once more. 54 Paladin, 12 Warlord, 10 Reaver. It seems to have the best mitigation, best cooldowns, and best abilities compared to every other spec (correct me if I am wrong and am drastically missing something.

    The 54 point abilities is amazing, as well as the 2 minute self heal, the 15% incoming heal increase, and the 41 point ability. Having two shields on for 3% armor 9% resist and 5% block or swap one of those for 35% damage (which is crazy damage) is also superior to anything else I have seen in a tank tree. Looking at VK, it is next in line for being good, as it has very good utility once more giving it a silence, a knockback, a pull, a cleanse, and a purge, yet the mitigation values still aren't quite right, but the absorption is great. Reaver is well...very lackluster in terms of mitigation it would seem right now, the main sources being binding of death and power from the masses, which is beaten by VK and Paladin.

    The final point I would like to make is that I feel the 12 point warlord ability is way too good, or it needs to be moved further up into the tree. This is mostly pigeonholing players into 12 warlord. A 12 point ability for 5% armor, 5% resist, and 10% endurance is just too good to be true.

    Again, if I drastically missed something within the other specs making them come out superior, please let me know.

    As for my opinion on the increase of abilities for every spec...keep it the way it is. It will make the player base better as a whole if they learn how to use a proper rotation without macros rather than relying on 2-4 buttons.
    Check Defensive Posture against the passive gifts from each tree. Im not a tank, so i havent looked into it. Going full tank may wind up being better just from the passive gifts every tree has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandar View Post
    Speaking in the abstract, making tanking more challenging is also contrary to the overall interests of the game. Although dedicated tanks argue for it, there's just not enough players who excel in tanking to meet the needs of the playerbase at large. The simpler tanking is, the more people are going to be willing to take that role (even if it's not one they prefer to play all of the time). And as long as Rift sticks with the "holy trinity" concept, you're stuck with a practical problem: how do you encourage more players to take the role of the tank so that everyone else gets a reasonable shot at completing group content?
    There is no shortage of tanks, theres no reason to encourage any more. In 5 mans yes, it might be an issue it can be solved by more people simply having tank OS. Encouraging tanks going MS will bring ecess tanks for raids, and its already bad as it is. For 5 man content you need 1 in 5 tanks, for 10 you need 1-2 in 10, for 20 you need 2-3 in 20.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Check Defensive Posture against the passive gifts from each tree. Im not a tank, so i havent looked into it. Going full tank may wind up being better just from the passive gifts every tree has.
    Indeed.
    Gift of Paladin/Reaver/Voidknight:
    1.5% Endurance per point
    1% Armour per point
    2% Resist per point
    0.5% damage per point

    Gift of the Warlord:
    0.75% Endurance per point
    0.5% Armour per point
    1% Resist per point
    0.9% Damage per point
    --------------------
    12 more points spent in a tank soul

    18% Endurance
    12% Armour
    24% Resist
    6% Damage

    12 Points in Warlord gives:
    9% Endurance (+10% from Defensive Posture) = 19% Endurance
    6% Armour (+5% from Defensive posture) = 11% Armour
    12% Resist (+5% from Defensive posture) = 17% Resist
    10.8% Damage.

    So, technically, all you gain via Warlord is 1% Endurance and lose out on everything else (except damage).

    Alternatively you could go 0 Voidknight to gain Void (1% Reduction to non spell, 3% Reduction to spell)
    Then, with 12 more spare points you could bring Reaver to 24 points giving you the full tank Gift mentioned above plus:

    5% Endurance
    3% Spell Resist + 3% Armour
    30s cooldown shield
    10s (13s with crystal) of 35% Damage reduction - pretty damn awesome every minute
    An extra AOE (Cyclone Strike)

    So unless I have miscalculated how the Buff would stack as opposed to the Gifts, I see no compelling reason to go Warlord as a tank

  8. #8
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    12 WL is not the be all and end all, the passive gift benefits mean its not something you aim for, but rather a good choice if you have a spare 12 points.

    I don't see what the problem with dealing more damage is, it gives you something to work on improving once content is on farm and you can meaningfully contribute on fights like Sicaron where tanks don't do much.

    What I don't like is how little control tanks still have over their survivability outside of VK short cd shields. Unfortunately the tech doesn't fully support scaling Binding of Death on the number of death dots you have active.

    If Atrius is reading this: I still think Crippling Infestation should be changed back, I know it could work with the old function if some numbers were shuffled around

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    12 WL is not the be all and end all, the passive gift benefits mean its not something you aim for, but rather a good choice if you have a spare 12 points.

    I don't see what the problem with dealing more damage is, it gives you something to work on improving once content is on farm and you can meaningfully contribute on fights like Sicaron where tanks don't do much.

    What I don't like is how little control tanks still have over their survivability outside of VK short cd shields. Unfortunately the tech doesn't fully support scaling Binding of Death on the number of death dots you have active.

    If Atrius is reading this: I still think Crippling Infestation should be changed back, I know it could work with the old function if some numbers were shuffled around
    I think with the extra dmg tanks are getting, it should help them scale there threat as we get to 60 and beyond .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asteldian View Post
    stuff
    I guess I didn't look closely enough at the warlord gift, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    The final point I would like to make is that I feel the 12 point warlord ability is way too good, or it needs to be moved further up into the tree. This is mostly pigeonholing players into 12 warlord. A 12 point ability for 5% armor, 5% resist, and 10% endurance is just too good to be true.
    .
    to get this 12 point in WL skill youre losing 6% Armor, 12% resistances, 9% endurance through losing 12 points of gift of the reaver. Yes you get 2.5% additional armor and resistances in WL talent but youre losing reaver talents having 5% endurance, 3% resistances, absorb skill and 35% DR on 1min cd skill too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    If Atrius is reading this: I still think Crippling Infestation should be changed back, I know it could work with the old function if some numbers were shuffled around
    /agree, not sure what the intent was on changing Crippling, was a nice emergency CD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    The true people who play tanks and want to tank are not playing to deal damage, we are playing to be damage soakers and to keep attention of the mob.
    Stopped reading after that, pure assumption and an insolent one too.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    12 WL is not the be all and end all, the passive gift benefits mean its not something you aim for, but rather a good choice if you have a spare 12 points.

    I don't see what the problem with dealing more damage is, it gives you something to work on improving once content is on farm and you can meaningfully contribute on fights like Sicaron where tanks don't do much.

    What I don't like is how little control tanks still have over their survivability outside of VK short cd shields. Unfortunately the tech doesn't fully support scaling Binding of Death on the number of death dots you have active.

    If Atrius is reading this: I still think Crippling Infestation should be changed back, I know it could work with the old function if some numbers were shuffled around
    To be fair, even without VK you can have a few survivability options:

    Reaver:
    Crest to Entropy (10s of 35% Reduction at 21 points in soul) I guess you could say this is the alternative to the old Infestation debuff except is a higher reduction

    Crest of Shadow (fairly crappy absorb but can be handy at times)

    Pally:
    Reverants Protection (crappy absorb shield, but again can be of use if it stacks with other shields)

    Shield Defense (An oddly crap version of Crest of Entropy which requires 40 points, only reduces by 30%, and has to be done after a Block)

    Touch of Life (Full Heal every 2 mins/90s if reducing cooldown)

    Light's Portection (boosting Heals on you by 15%)

    All these things well timed can boost your survivability and can all be on the same tank build

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    Yeah yeah I was wrong about something for once regarding tanking, thank you :-). 54 Paladin 21 Reaver 1 VK it seems then so far.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    Yeah yeah I was wrong about something for once regarding tanking, thank you :-). 54 Paladin 21 Reaver 1 VK it seems then so far.
    How good is the 54 point Pally ability? The Tool Tip seems broken to me claiming to reduce the mobs damage by 0%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asteldian View Post
    How good is the 54 point Pally ability? The Tool Tip seems broken to me claiming to reduce the mobs damage by 0%
    IIRC it was 7% physical 14% magic which is huge, unless they changed it.
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    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    54pt PL ability is 7% nonspell and 14% spell DR.
    Far too good imo.

    When I said tanks don't have enough control over their own survivability I meant on a second by second basis. There should be more things like Aggressive Block and the old Warlord Synergy Crystal and less boring abilities like the new Devouring Blow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clasbyte View Post
    Stopped reading after that, pure assumption and an insolent one too.
    If you want to deal damage, go dps. You aren't a true tank. Now let's get back on topic :-).
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    IIRC it was 7% physical 14% magic which is huge, unless they changed it.
    Ah ok, thanks. That is pretty good.

    But is it really that amazing and does it force you down the high Pally route?

    51 Reaver gives you BoD and Power from the Masses, combined that gives:
    8% non magic, 14% Magic.

    So a 51 Reaver/21 Pally/4 VK would would allow you to replace that 54 Pally ability. Admittedly that isn't necessarilly meaning it is a better build (though that is due to lack of benefits from spending high in Reaver talents overall). I think you would lose out on:
    3% Reduction when Blocking
    5% Block (2nd Shield Buff)
    Shield Defense (crappy compared to Reaver it may be, but it is still a cooldown)
    Increase Heal effectiveness for 15s

    But you gain (By dipping into VK):
    4% Spell Resist
    5% Armour (at 10 Pacts)
    10% Spell Resist(at 10 Pacts)


    So I would guess the 54 point Pally is a superior build, but not so much because of the 54 point ability but because with the Reavers defensive talents all being low end, going 51 doesn't give enough benefits in addition to BoD and PftM (which work out slightly superior to the Pally 54 point ability). On the other hand, BoD, thanks to AOE DoTs, and PftM, thanks to being a buff on self - means that in fights with more than one mob they work out better than the 54 point Pally ability which only effects one target. So, if a fight involves just tanking a boss then 54 is probably the way to go, but if there are multiple enemies to tank or at least multiple enemies doing damage (via AOE while another is off tanking) then actually the Reaver may be superior.

    Then again 32 Vk/21 Reaver/22 Pally also may be a viable way to go, despite not having the high end abilities mentioned above, you have the upgraded Void as well as most the best defensive talents from the other souls. All in all, I would say it is too early to decide on a be all end all tank as I think at least in theory there seems to be a few options. Course I am not a great number cruncher so I may be wrong

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