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Thread: Tanking Feedback

  1. #1
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    Tanking Feedback

    Several bits of feedback on tanking. Since I can't yet test the tanking specs in a HK/ID raid setting, this is based on mobs in EI and the new zones.

    1) Why is Sergeant's Order on the GCD when Spark, Shield Throw and Grim Lure are OGCD? Sergeant's Order is OGCD on Live, this needs to get fixed.

    2) Having Sergeant's Order as a zero pt ability seems really cool as it should complement the other tanking souls. Unfortunately, as a zero point ability you don't have a Posture, so it's only a summon, not a forced taunt (3s). This makes is useless in a tanking build.

    3) Paladin Shield Defense - this is a poor replacement for the Impassable Guard we have on Live. Emergency cool downs have to be timed precisely in a fight to be useful. Making it only work after the warrior has blocked makes it mostly useless. Also it's only 6s vs. 10s on Live. The Reaver version, Crest of Entropy is higher damage reduction (35& vs. 30%), lasts longer (10s) and doesn't need a block.

    4) Removing the 15s cool down on Aggressive Block is just cheap. A memo from Daglar must have gone out to all the class leads to remove all cool downs so macro's become useless and I need to use my Logitech keyboard to play (or Naga mouse). There is no good, logical reason to remove this cooldown, please fix.

    5) Reaver tanking is unnecessarily complicated. Without any cool downs, it becomes a mess of DOT management. I don't mind managing DOT's/bleeds in a DPS spec, but in a tanking spec? Tanking is already hard enough (look at the lack of tanks in the dungeon queue); it doesn't need to be more complicated. At this point Reaver doesn't bring anything useful to the party that Paladin or Void Knight don't have, so it will become the forgotten tank soul.

    6) Void Knight is missing an equivalent for Singularity (35% damage reduction for 10s on Live).

  2. #2
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    /Agree to all points above, as far as Reaver goes? gosh trion, im a tank, my priority is Threat > Positioning of mobs/boss > more threat > raid awareness > mitigation rotations , that all is not too hard but to add DoT management is too much i think

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    ?

    1.) Sergeant's Order is the only -Taunt- in that list that physically brings the enemy toward you. I believe they wanted to change it to be an actual ability let alone a taunt, like Spark,Grim Lure, etc...

    2.) Like I said above, it;s meant to be an ability now, not a main taunt used in raids currently. You CAN make into a taunt, but you have to sacrifice 4-5 points, which isn't all that bad if you can find 4 points. 12 is better, but 4 will do.

    3.) Not much to be said about this, I guess they will do what they want. I don't think using it after a block will be such a big deal, think of it as a mini shroud? You could even possibly get both of the "Shrouds" if you go into Reaver/Paladin...granted might not be a wise choice but still..

    4.) Only thing I would agree with...Sucks, but hey..It's their game.

    5.) Personally, I love the way Reaver tanking is on the beta...It's a TON more fun the standing using aggressive block off CD and spamming Blood Fever while making a sandwich.

    6.)Tradeoffs? VK is the only spec that has a purge/self cleanse...Also has shields for not only yourself but other raid members.


    Just my 2Cents, I think tanking should stay the way it is..
    --With the possibility of making aggressive block have a CD, which even then it wouldnt really matter and will make the tanking community as a whole, better.--

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    I agree with Vear completely.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Playing deep reaver is fine until you add aggressive block and pacification. Then its a nightmare to manage, you just have to sacrifice something. We've made Atrius aware of it, especially the apparent uselessness of Flesh Rot.

    Sergeants Order changes are a very good thing, especially since dps warriors can now use it without dying when aiding mob positioning.

    The removal of Singularity was necessary, with 76pts it is too easy to end up with a large number of cooldowns.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vear View Post
    Several bits of feedback on tanking. Since I can't yet test the tanking specs in a HK/ID raid setting, this is based on mobs in EI and the new zones.

    1) Why is Sergeant's Order on the GCD when Spark, Shield Throw and Grim Lure are OGCD? Sergeant's Order is OGCD on Live, this needs to get fixed.

    Check the talent disorient. Sergeant's Order is the only FT that can possibly have a damage reduction component. This is why it is on GCD. If you only need to FT, use the other 3, if you spec'd high enough to get the damage reduction, then use SO.

    2) Having Sergeant's Order as a zero pt ability seems really cool as it should complement the other tanking souls. Unfortunately, as a zero point ability you don't have a Posture, so it's only a summon, not a forced taunt (3s). This makes is useless in a tanking build.

    It is only a summon. There are beyond numerous times where I only needed to summon a mob and not needed a FT. But beyond the point, why would you be using zero point WL in a tank spec...surely its worth more than that...

    3) Paladin Shield Defense - this is a poor replacement for the Impassable Guard we have on Live. Emergency cool downs have to be timed precisely in a fight to be useful. Making it only work after the warrior has blocked makes it mostly useless. Also it's only 6s vs. 10s on Live. The Reaver version, Crest of Entropy is higher damage reduction (35& vs. 30%), lasts longer (10s) and doesn't need a block.

    This point we can agree on.

    4) Removing the 15s cool down on Aggressive Block is just cheap. A memo from Daglar must have gone out to all the class leads to remove all cool downs so macro's become useless and I need to use my Logitech keyboard to play (or Naga mouse). There is no good, logical reason to remove this cooldown, please fix.

    I'm back and forth on this. The fact is right now on live, a lazy tank can get the same productivity as an efficient tank. I'm more concerned that it is only 3% compared to 10%. Tank rotations are not a bad thing.

    5) Reaver tanking is unnecessarily complicated. Without any cool downs, it becomes a mess of DOT management. I don't mind managing DOT's/bleeds in a DPS spec, but in a tanking spec? Tanking is already hard enough (look at the lack of tanks in the dungeon queue); it doesn't need to be more complicated. At this point Reaver doesn't bring anything useful to the party that Paladin or Void Knight
    don't have, so it will become the forgotten tank soul.

    This point is false. Currently there is ZERO benefit maintaining all dots aside more dps. If you want more dps, then yes you have to work hard. You will be able to use other abilities to maintain high agro outside of keeping SS/BF/NW/FW all up. But it is something to practice towards. However right now, the only purpose keeping all dots up is for a higher infestation/explosive.

    6) Void Knight is missing an equivalent for Singularity (35% damage reduction for 10s on Live).
    This is also true. They gave us all these absorption shields in replacement of it but I question if it was a fair trade.
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    My biggest question is whether Binding of Death and Pacification stack. BoD is at 51 points in to Reaver, Pacification is 16 points in Paladin, and leaves us with 9 points.
    If they do stack, then something with BoD, Pacification, and Void from 0 VK would come out to I think 12% physical mit and 26% magic mit.
    This puts it above most other tank specs, maybe all other tank specs... You get the Reaver's 35% CD, paladin's heals, and you can opt to get VK's extra 5% armor...
    The tradeoff is managing dots AND pacifying strike.

    Though in general it seems like the tank souls got a bit homogenized. Every one has + endurance, + armor, + hate based on endurance... etc. But Reaver has the best mit CD, and for 23 in paladin, you can have ToL as well.
    I am a bit concerned about armor though. Right now we've got people with 27k armor, and something like 83% armor mitigation. How much room will we have to grow afterwords? If the formula remains (Armor)/(Armor + 130*lvl) then I imagine that tanks will be closing in on maybe 90% armor mit in SL raid gear.

    This sounds fine on paper, but if you decide to have a boss do a melee aoe that will hurt a tank, though 90% armor mit, then said aoe will oneshot anyone but a tank. Which is bad...

  8. #8
    Senior Member Primalthirst's Avatar
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    The armor mit formula changes somewhere, I'm not at 60 but have been told that armor mit is substantially lower.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Sergeants Order changes are a very good thing, especially since dps warriors can now use it without dying when aiding mob positioning.

    The removal of Singularity was necessary, with 76pts it is too easy to end up with a large number of cooldowns.
    Sergeant's Order needs to be OGCD for it to maintain the effectiveness it has on Live. If it needs to be GCD due to the silly Disorient effect in Warlord, please change Spark or Grim Lure or Shield Throw to be a summon. As long as we have an OGCD summon taunt available somewhere low in the tree, it's fine. By the way, Spark has a travel time that make it less useful for grabbing an add or saving a healer/dps who accidentally got aggro. That needs to get fixed too.

    Removing Singularity makes no sense. I can see not wanting to give a tank multiple emergency cooldowns (35% damage reduction for 10sec), but that is easily fixed by making them share the same cooldown, much like the taunts are all different names but share the same cooldown.

  10. #10
    Found a fun bug related to warrior tanking tonight (unsure if it extends past warriors into all tanks, didn't have other classes around to check).

    I was going to test tank builds, so I grabbed a chloro and we headed over to expert AP. Simple enough, I've tanked it in my DPS gear before.

    Full tank spec, full tank gear (ID level). I got splattered. The first pull, mobs were hitting 1600 group DPS. Completely took me by surprise.

    So we tried regular AP. Piece of cake, right? Wrong. Pull 1 (pull 1 is the entry 5 mobs) was around 1k DPS on me.

    Went to live to check things out, make sure I wasn't losing my mind....

    Expert AP: Pull 1, 811 mob DPS

    Normal AP: pull1, 310 mob DPS.


    Something has happened, with either the code for dungeons, or the code for warrior tanks to where we're taking a lot more damage than we should be.

    As an interestingly buggy aside; I switched to my DPS gear...and neither the damage against me, nor the damage I was putting out changed at all.

    (my gut feeling is Vengeful shield, the paladin buff that gives 35% more damage is goofing it up somehow; making mobs hit you 35% harder or something of the ilk).

    Bugged and actually reported it to Daglar and Hartsmann in game (lucky they were online while I was discovering this.)
    Lemming@Greybriar

  11. #11
    Senior Member Sharog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redius View Post
    Found a fun bug related to warrior tanking tonight (unsure if it extends past warriors into all tanks, didn't have other classes around to check).

    I was going to test tank builds, so I grabbed a chloro and we headed over to expert AP. Simple enough, I've tanked it in my DPS gear before.

    Full tank spec, full tank gear (ID level). I got splattered. The first pull, mobs were hitting 1600 group DPS. Completely took me by surprise.

    So we tried regular AP. Piece of cake, right? Wrong. Pull 1 (pull 1 is the entry 5 mobs) was around 1k DPS on me.

    Went to live to check things out, make sure I wasn't losing my mind....

    Expert AP: Pull 1, 811 mob DPS

    Normal AP: pull1, 310 mob DPS.


    Something has happened, with either the code for dungeons, or the code for warrior tanks to where we're taking a lot more damage than we should be.

    As an interestingly buggy aside; I switched to my DPS gear...and neither the damage against me, nor the damage I was putting out changed at all.

    (my gut feeling is Vengeful shield, the paladin buff that gives 35% more damage is goofing it up somehow; making mobs hit you 35% harder or something of the ilk).

    Bugged and actually reported it to Daglar and Hartsmann in game (lucky they were online while I was discovering this.)
    and this is happening to all tanking souls or just high paladin?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Redius View Post
    Found a fun bug related to warrior tanking tonight (unsure if it extends past warriors into all tanks, didn't have other classes around to check).

    I was going to test tank builds, so I grabbed a chloro and we headed over to expert AP. Simple enough, I've tanked it in my DPS gear before.

    Full tank spec, full tank gear (ID level). I got splattered. The first pull, mobs were hitting 1600 group DPS. Completely took me by surprise.

    So we tried regular AP. Piece of cake, right? Wrong. Pull 1 (pull 1 is the entry 5 mobs) was around 1k DPS on me.

    Went to live to check things out, make sure I wasn't losing my mind....

    Expert AP: Pull 1, 811 mob DPS

    Normal AP: pull1, 310 mob DPS.


    Something has happened, with either the code for dungeons, or the code for warrior tanks to where we're taking a lot more damage than we should be.

    As an interestingly buggy aside; I switched to my DPS gear...and neither the damage against me, nor the damage I was putting out changed at all.

    (my gut feeling is Vengeful shield, the paladin buff that gives 35% more damage is goofing it up somehow; making mobs hit you 35% harder or something of the ilk).

    Bugged and actually reported it to Daglar and Hartsmann in game (lucky they were online while I was discovering this.)
    Thank you! I started a thread here regarding my experience with the AP dungeon Expert and it hurt a lot and people thought maybe I was odd. On live I use 32 RB in my dungeon tnak build and all DPS gear exept what I need to get Toughness to 100, I usually do so without a real healer. I did Expert AP on the BEta in a full 66 point tank spec (not the best, but a split of Reaver and Pally) and ful tank gear. WIth 23k hp and 30k Armour and all the defensive talents maxed, I was getting hurt. Alot. One fight I almost died in I myself had 1500HPS, nevermind the healers HPS! This was against a standard pack of about 5 mobs. I am sure most of you are all to familiar with the way most of us tank Experts these days - pretty much run through and gather many packs of mobs before blowing them away. I was taking it one pack at a time and it was not pretty (admittedly the Chloro was learning his new spec, but even so, on Live I self heal most dungeons).

    Also, interestingly I switched to a wierd 2h tank build I made (12 Warlord, 18 CHamp, 36 Pally) and the CHloro actually said it was easier keeping me alive - and I noticed my health dropping a lot less too.
    BOth specs used the 35% shield buff rom Pally though so I don't think thats the issue

  13. #13
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    The actual tanksouls looks all like "We have no concept, letīs /roll 100"
    Ohh cool, 15 new damagebuffs in my tanksouls...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharog View Post
    and this is happening to all tanking souls or just high paladin?
    I didn't try anything except high paladin; that was my error for not making a VK and Reaver build and trying it.
    Lemming@Greybriar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skar View Post
    The actual tanksouls looks all like "We have no concept, letīs /roll 100"
    Ohh cool, 15 new damagebuffs in my tanksouls...

    +100

    The tank builds just seem thrown together and some dps abilities in there as fillers.. Really disappointed in the tanking changes for us warriors tbh.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by backwoods View Post
    +100

    The tank builds just seem thrown together and some dps abilities in there as fillers.. Really disappointed in the tanking changes for us warriors tbh.
    If this goes life my warrior will be my next bankchar. For me it is very disappointing.

  17. #17
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    Reaver tanking still wins.

    There's no point to going beyond 21 Pts in Paladin, unless you want ToL. The remaining mitigation talents are too deep in.

    I had a build that looked quite promising using 21 Pl/~15 VK/~30 RV (don't remember the exact totals).

    Basically, fill out the good stuff in Pl, take Reaver until PotM, toss the rest in VK.
    Total of +20% extra Endurance, 2% extra armor from VK, similar from Paladin. You've got PotM, the good Pac Strike, extra HP from all trees.

    That said it would be an atrocious build to play. No real sense of purpose or feel, just a mis-mash of garbage.

    Also, WTF happened with the tool-tips? What are the bonuses to mitigation/HP for tanking trees? Do they still exist? The clerics have awesome mouse-over breakdowns, we get squat. We can't even do proper calculations without that.

    Overall, I'm completely underwhelmed. The mitigation seems all over the place. Reaver which was supposed to be the high-DPS tank is actually by far the best mitigation because of PotM and Shroud. Deep Paladin is even worse than it is on live. You can get high block, but wind up giving up everything else to get it.

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