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Thread: Lack of macros?

  1. #1

    Lack of macros?

    With the game going in the direction to go away from macros, and a majority of things instant now and macros not being what they used to be, i find that i have filled up 3 bars with buttons.

    Some players hands cant work that great with all the alt, shift, ctrl button smashing going on now.

    For the sake of those with hand issues (handicaps) please put some cool downs in, so we can have some macros.

    Love the game, but walking away from a playing period after clicking so much with both hands, shouldnt be a painful experience (literally).

  2. #2
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    I agree, bad change with that one.

  3. #3
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    agree.

    I guess they don't want us going easy mode. I have small hands, fingers can't reach the numbers if I have to hold alt-ctrl. lol. I can't imagine how tough it could be for people with arthritis.

    I guess we can go back to mouse and clicking a million buttons?

    Btw, if we're going to have to have 30 abilities on our bars can we reshape our hotbars? I don't mean just resize them, but reshape them? Turn a line of 10 into 2 lines of 5? Make it a box shaped?

  4. #4
    I disagree - removed reliance on macros is a very positive thing. It means you'll have to be more creative with your keybinds but it also raises the skill cap greatly. Very good change.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    I disagree - removed reliance on macros is a very positive thing. It means you'll have to be more creative with your keybinds but it also raises the skill cap greatly. Very good change.
    Skill has nothing to do with those with a handicap nor keybinds. Stores dont remove ramps and auto doors and parking spaces after they have already been in use for two years, and say "we want to remove reliance on using those ramps, stairs and auto doors" they would lose to many customers.

    I do agree that 2 button smashers is good to get away from, but come on, at least put some cool downs in to make less ctrl, alt, shifting with keys for those with a handicap.

    With the cooldowns it would be possible to make a macro or two, here or there, at least bring it to the middle ground.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Middnite View Post
    Skill has nothing to do with those with a handicap nor keybinds. Stores dont remove ramps and auto doors and parking spaces after they have already been in use for two years, and say "we want to remove reliance on using those ramps, stairs and auto doors" they would lose to many customers.

    I do agree that 2 button smashers is good to get away from, but come on, at least put some cool downs in to make less ctrl, alt, shifting with keys for those with a handicap.

    With the cooldowns it would be possible to make a macro or two, here or there, at least bring it to the middle ground.
    Yeah 2 Buttons was way to low but it should not be needed to use more then 10 keys, there are people who cant physical handle more.

    Just my 2 cents.

    brgds

    CB

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Middnite View Post
    Skill has nothing to do with those with a handicap nor keybinds. Stores dont remove ramps and auto doors and parking spaces after they have already been in use for two years, and say "we want to remove reliance on using those ramps, stairs and auto doors" they would lose to many customers.

    I do agree that 2 button smashers is good to get away from, but come on, at least put some cool downs in to make less ctrl, alt, shifting with keys for those with a handicap.

    With the cooldowns it would be possible to make a macro or two, here or there, at least bring it to the middle ground.
    I am likely being very insensitive, but if you have a disability impairing your ability in some way, you can't expect to compete at the highest levels in a skill-based environment. The highest damage potential possible (or healing potential, or tanking potential etc) should only be achieved by those with fantastic APM, decision-making skills, reactions and ingenuity in an ideal world with a high skill cap.

    Designing it in such a way that not everyone will be able to play it to its fullest is a good step forward in my opinion, rather than "anyone can do this".

  8. #8
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    Do you forget this is a game and is supposed to be enjoyable? I think you need to unplug and go outside for an hour or two a day.

  9. #9
    Do you forget this is a game and is supposed to be enjoyable? I think you need to unplug and go outside for an hour or two a day.
    Do you forget this is a game and is supposed to be competitive? Competition in PvP, competition over best DPS in a raid, competition over best healing in a raid, competition to be the most used tanks in a raid, competition for raid spots...

    This isn't "everyone can play as well as everyone else because you just have to hit two buttons"! There is nothing wrong whatsoever with there being a more clear divide between the good and the bad.

  10. #10
    You are being incredibly insensitive. For that matter a simple case of carpal tunnel syndrome makes it impossible to play with this option. Some macros are still viable for some specs, but not all. For example Marksman and Tactician both have a few attack options with a cd.

    And for characters that are based around timed debuffs, you're forced to either stop paying attention to what's actually going on to watch your timers or getting something like KrauulAlert (which while useful, is incredibly confusing to set up) where as before you could macro several of them together and press one button per cycle and know that all of your debuffs were applied in the right order.

    Sure, I agree that the two buttons smashers needed some adjusting, but that could have been done by limiting the number of possible commands in the macro from 25 to say 7 or 8. 2 of those commands will likely be taken up by the #show and suppressmacrofailures (standards in pretty much every macro so you know what type of attacks you're using, and so you don't get constant screen messages from the lack of ability to chain commands together)

    Playing the druid on my cleric yesterday... frustrating.. I was jumping all over my keyboard every 10 seconds just to keep all my debuffs/buffs going. It sucked all the fun out of playing it.

    Edit: Even 5 or 6 command line cap in a macro would work feasibly without overloading the player. You might need 4 ~ 6 different macros (i.e.- self-buffs, debuffs, ranged, melee, reactive attacks, finishers etc) but that's alot more balanced that both the 2 button style and the OMG-SPAM-ENTIRE-NUMERIC-KEY-LINE! we've got now.

  11. #11
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    Welcome to the world of the Mage in Defilemancer for the past year.


    Levels the playing field across all classes in terms of skill, having some classes with 1>2 button mashers while others juggle up to 8-10 different things just wasn't fair before.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts4Sushi View Post
    You are being incredibly insensitive. For that matter a simple case of carpal tunnel syndrome makes it impossible to play with this option. Some macros are still viable for some specs, but not all. For example Marksman and Tactician both have a few attack options with a cd.

    And for characters that are based around timed debuffs, you're forced to either stop paying attention to what's actually going on to watch your timers or getting something like KrauulAlert (which while useful, is incredibly confusing to set up) where as before you could macro several of them together and press one button per cycle and know that all of your debuffs were applied in the right order.

    Sure, I agree that the two buttons smashers needed some adjusting, but that could have been done by limiting the number of possible commands in the macro from 25 to say 7 or 8. 2 of those commands will likely be taken up by the #show and suppressmacrofailures (standards in pretty much every macro so you know what type of attacks you're using, and so you don't get constant screen messages from the lack of ability to chain commands together)

    Playing the druid on my cleric yesterday... frustrating.. I was jumping all over my keyboard every 10 seconds just to keep all my debuffs/buffs going. It sucked all the fun out of playing it.
    That's only because you're not used to it. When you are used to your cycle, things become a lot simpler. It is all about just learning it to begin with, and becoming more accustomed to it.

    If we start deliberately keeping the game incredibly easy to play just in case someone, somewhere cannot play it properly, it stifles game growth and punishes good players.

  13. #13
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    Older player with some arthritis and carpal tunnel issues here. I don't think there should be only two buttons, of course. Currently I'm running a rogue and holding down a spot in the top three or four dps in a progressive raiding guild, and I'm not doing it by pressing only two buttons, I assure you. I've had to work really hard to get where I am.

    However, the changes seem extreme to me. I like the idea of Trion simply limiting the number of commands in a macro or sprinkling in a few more cooldowns. Surely there is a happy medium. People with quick twitch, alertness, etc. should be the best competitive players. But new content shouldn't be beyond the grasp of players who are willing to work hard.

    Just my .02

  14. #14
    For that matter Raenn... and yes, I've tested it... it's still possible to only use two or three buttons with some classes.
    Ranger and Marksman both for example (Notorious for being 1 button+Finisher)

    For Ranger I can put Shadow Fire, Piercing Shot, and Ace Shot into one macro. This keeps up SF's damage boost, Piercing Shot's armor debuff, and Ace Shot's pet damage boost. Then all I have to do is tap my finisher of choice once in a while...

    Because honestly... against most things you won't even need the DoT from bleed to finish off the mobs with ease. Stronger (Elite or higher level) mobs might require you to toss your bleed damage in somewhere, but honestly if I have the macro above, plus Splinter Shot in another key, guess what... only using 3 buttons dude! Uh oh!

    Same thing with Marksman. Mind you I've never been a 2 button marksman player but I generally have one or two macros for Single and Multi target usage.
    My bar is layed out like this:
    1. Barbed Shot (to pull moving mobs, keep movement based bleed up on bosses/players)
    2. Single Target Macro (Static Shot->Decoy->Lightning Fury->Empowered Shot->Swift Shot)
    3. Bull's Eye (Critical Sweetness)
    4. Finisher Macro (keeps Rapid Fire Shot conveniently in the same place as Deadeye Shot, with Hasted Shot in behind that for firing while in motion)
    5. Strafe (for when I'm feeling lazy! since we don't have the stand in one place dps boost any more, this is just a combo point builder for when I dont want to press my macro while moving around)
    6. Rapid Reload (Strafe->Bull's Eye->Finisher Macro->Rapid Reload->Repeat... need I say more?)
    7. Empty space
    8. Multi-Target Macro (Shadow Fire->Lightning Fury->Crossfire->Fan Out)
    9. Chain Destruction (feels like Rain of Arrows on Ranger. lol)
    10. Repelling Shot (Too close! Back off!)
    -. Empty Space
    =. Mount key.

    In 90% of situations... all I really have to do is hit two or three buttons and I'll do fine. (maybe 4 for a rapid reload chain cast)
    That's what I'm running around the Beta with on my marksman build. 2nd bar tied into numpad with buffs, movement abilities, and Stealth/Puncture for when I'm feeling stab-by...

    I'm still getting the same DPS that was nailing me top 3 spot in guild on live. (actually, it's higher now thanks to level up and some gear I bought, but it's paced about what I expected from the stat gains I recieved.)

    Warriors are still going to be 2~3 buttons in most situations... Champion: Cornered Beast(its a builder now WTH?) and AE finisher. Done.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuts4Sushi View Post
    For that matter Raenn... and yes, I've tested it... it's still possible to only use two or three buttons with some classes.
    Ranger and Marksman both for example (Notorious for being 1 button+Finisher)

    For Ranger I can put Shadow Fire, Piercing Shot, and Ace Shot into one macro. This keeps up SF's damage boost, Piercing Shot's armor debuff, and Ace Shot's pet damage boost. Then all I have to do is tap my finisher of choice once in a while...

    Because honestly... against most things you won't even need the DoT from bleed to finish off the mobs with ease. Stronger (Elite or higher level) mobs might require you to toss your bleed damage in somewhere, but honestly if I have the macro above, plus Splinter Shot in another key, guess what... only using 3 buttons dude! Uh oh!

    Same thing with Marksman. Mind you I've never been a 2 button marksman player but I generally have one or two macros for Single and Multi target usage.
    My bar is layed out like this:
    1. Barbed Shot (to pull moving mobs, keep movement based bleed up on bosses/players)
    2. Single Target Macro (Static Shot->Decoy->Lightning Fury->Empowered Shot->Swift Shot)
    3. Bull's Eye (Critical Sweetness)
    4. Finisher Macro (keeps Rapid Fire Shot conveniently in the same place as Deadeye Shot, with Hasted Shot in behind that for firing while in motion)
    5. Strafe (for when I'm feeling lazy! since we don't have the stand in one place dps boost any more, this is just a combo point builder for when I dont want to press my macro while moving around)
    6. Rapid Reload (Strafe->Bull's Eye->Finisher Macro->Rapid Reload->Repeat... need I say more?)
    7. Empty space
    8. Multi-Target Macro (Shadow Fire->Lightning Fury->Crossfire->Fan Out)
    9. Chain Destruction (feels like Rain of Arrows on Ranger. lol)
    10. Repelling Shot (Too close! Back off!)
    -. Empty Space
    =. Mount key.

    In 90% of situations... all I really have to do is hit two or three buttons and I'll do fine. (maybe 4 for a rapid reload chain cast)
    That's what I'm running around the Beta with on my marksman build. 2nd bar tied into numpad with buffs, movement abilities, and Stealth/Puncture for when I'm feeling stab-by...

    I'm still getting the same DPS that was nailing me top 3 spot in guild on live. (actually, it's higher now thanks to level up and some gear I bought, but it's paced about what I expected from the stat gains I recieved.)

    Warriors are still going to be 2~3 buttons in most situations... Champion: Cornered Beast(its a builder now WTH?) and AE finisher. Done.
    Absolutely. So you are able to perform at a decent level by macroing still, while being less efficient than someone who doesn't. I don't see a problem here, at least from the perspective of "It's too difficult to press all of these keys! Now I can't play"!

    I dunno why people made Ranger 2 button on live either. I separated most stuff out because I hate wasting combo points, and because I don't want to overwrite the first tick of my Quick Shot bleeds.

    Being top 3 DPS in a guild means nothing unless the people you are parsing against are also good. If we're talking top 3 in No Quarter or Terrible Idea or Parabellum for instance, that would be impressive. Top 3 in a guild still stuck in Hammerknell or early ID for example would be considerably less of an accomplishment.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Chivery View Post
    Welcome to the world of the Mage in Defilemancer for the past year.


    Levels the playing field across all classes in terms of skill, having some classes with 1>2 button mashers while others juggle up to 8-10 different things just wasn't fair before.
    but unlike other classes, mages can move freely of their target, and doesnt rely on position like melee does.

    Melee has to be in melee range (a position) of the target even for the skills to be used, and they also need to focus on movement, as well as spamming all these abilities due to no macros anymore.

    not a great design decision.

    mage is ranged, so they dont need to focus on all these kind of things, they simply spam an attack, and could even stand still if needed. if kiting, just run and gun. doesnt matter where the target could been while doing it. Melee is far different. which is why such a system is bad to be forced across all callings and souls.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by knighthonor View Post
    but unlike other classes, mages can move freely of their target, and doesnt rely on position like melee does.

    Melee has to be in melee range (a position) of the target even for the skills to be used, and they also need to focus on movement, as well as spamming all these abilities due to no macros anymore.

    not a great design decision.

    mage is ranged, so they dont need to focus on all these kind of things, they simply spam an attack, and could even stand still if needed. if kiting, just run and gun. doesnt matter where the target could been while doing it. Melee is far different. which is why such a system is bad to be forced across all callings and souls.
    Ranged still have to respond to mechanics, and in PvP position is completely vital (ie to be "not melee" range)!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    Ranged still have to respond to mechanics, and in PvP position is completely vital (ie to be "not melee" range)!
    worrying about being not in melee range, isnt the same thing as worrying about being in melee range.

    since ranged attacks from mage will still go off regardless of how close they are to the target.

    melee fighters still have to worry about the same damage input from threats in melee range, but also have to consider the fact their attacks also wont go off unless in melee range.

  19. #19
    Your attacks will go off, but you're also most likely going to die.

  20. #20
    My point, Raen is that removing the viability of macros is not going to change anything. You'll still be capable of dealing the same DPS with 2~3 buttons (with some builds) as you did with a macro. That being said, what reason is there to remove their viability. Leave them alone for the people who want or need to use them and let the rest of us complicate (or simplify) our play-style as we see fit.

    There are different ways to measure "skill" and "growth", "difficulty", and even "fun"...
    For example, Player 1 might say that "skill" was "the ability to maximize dps without a macro"
    Player 2 will probably say "Using rotations and macros to have the best possible dps/survivability/threat/whatever, etc."
    Player 3 will tell you something totally different... and so on for each of those things.

    Some people would say that raids (in equivalent gear for that raid tier) are "difficult, but possible."
    I'll tell you that they're easy... you just have to learn the script. (Or run KingBossMods which tells you what's happening so you can respond in time.)

    I won't try to define "fun" for you. (Which a game should be, if it's not, why play it?) However, I will tell you that what would be the most "fun" for damn near everyone, is to let them play it the way they choose.
    If someone wants to do things the simple way and use macros and be viable in every class, LET 'EM!
    If someone else doesn't like macros and prefers to press twenty different buttons, SO BE IT!

    It's kinda silly to force someone into a play-style they're unhappy with. I'm not going to force you to drink Coca-cola that was made in Mexico because I think it tastes better (they make it with actual sugar down there instead of the corn syrup used in US production)... but that also doesn't mean I shouldn't give you the option to drink it. Or maybe you'll go drink tea because you like it better... It's your option.

    And that is one of the BIG things that TRION has been about from the launch of RIFT was giving players OPTIONS!

    So why take those options away if they don't really make a difference?

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