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Thread: A plea regarding Mage DPS rotations for Storm Legion

  1. #1
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    A plea regarding Mage DPS rotations for Storm Legion

    I'd just like to ask Zervik to give some consideration to Mage rotations when balancing things come Storm Legion, and try to ensure that the DPS rotations are a little more forgiving this time around.

    I know I know, a whole bunch of people are going to be up in arms right now, telling me I am a noob, telling me that it isn't that hard to play well, telling me that we don't want boring one button macro rotations etc etc.

    I'm the Mage class leader for my guild, I can play Defilemancer, I choose to play PyroLock because mistakes are significantly more forgiving and as a raid leader who is paying attention to a dozen other things I'd rather do PyroLock well than play Defilemancer badly. So I can play the Mage rotations in their current state, I've broke 4.4 - 4.5k on Ituziel (before Icewatch became lag ridden anyway) with 36/30.

    But I also know that there is a shortage of mages right now, at least on the EU servers. My own guild is crying out for mages that can pull decent DPS, and I know that ParaBellum and Envy, two better guilds than my own, are also desperately seeking mages, and have been for some time.

    I believe that the reason is that the current best two DPS specs are just a little too complex. Don't get my wrong I want some complexity, in fact I find the PyroLock spec to be perfect for me, but I think that for a lot of players have trouble pulling decent numbers. Let's face it, the old Stormcaller rotation and the Defilemancer rotation are the two hardest rotations ever to appear in RIFT, and they are both Mage rotations. Sure we can achieve the best DPS with them, but if you're not able to pull them off you end up subpar even though your skill level isn't that bad, the rotations are just insane.

    The other reason of course is Mage survivability in PvP, I think being cannon fodder to melee classes with no escapes, no reliable cooldowns and too little firepower to counter other classes cooldowns has also had an effect on Mage representation at endgame, but we'll see how it all pans out at 60 before calling for any changes. I do still note a significant lack of defensive options in the changes posted, but I am glad to see that Chloro got some loving with the separation of Damage and Healing.

    Anyway, flame on!

  2. #2
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    I like mage and the overview gives some interesting thoughts to new rotations. Still I agree that pyro lock is more forgiving than defilemancer but I'm think variety will come in the storm caller and not needing pyro all the time

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intim View Post
    I like mage and the overview gives some interesting thoughts to new rotations. Still I agree that pyro lock is more forgiving than defilemancer but I'm think variety will come in the storm caller and not needing pyro all the time
    I'm not too worried about variety to be honest. I enjoy playing a fire mage, and I enjoyed playing a storm mage before that. It doesn't massively concern me that we were tied to Pyromancer so much, though I don't mind seeing the dependency gone either. At the end of the day, clever mages will theorycraft and parse the best specs and we'll all end up playing them.

    I just don't want to end up with more Defilemancer and Stormcaller type single target rotations that are at best are difficult to learn and only the best will ever master, at worst they are horribly unforgiving and deter people from the mage class.

    Great mages will always be great, I see no need to encumber the class with difficult rotations so that a few can shine while the class is passed over by many others.

    It's quite funny that on some of the other forums I post on players who only played RIFT a little at launch complain about single button macro spammers dominating the game, yet that is far from the truth, and not at all true for the mage class. Quite the opposite in fact

  4. #4
    Agree to an extend here.

    But I think the better solution woud be to ensure that the complex specs don't get too much in front. In the sense that there should always be an easier macro spamming spec for those preferring that and not capable of pulling off the harder rotations.

    Those easier specs just have to be within ~5-10% of the top DPS specs to make them desirable at all. If a complex spec like Defilemancer gets too far in front we'll end up with the same problem again, which I agree on scares people away from the mage class to some extend :/
    - Hvabehar

  5. #5
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    Personally, I love the complexity of current mage specs on live. The problem is that there wasn't really any competitive alternatives besides the 28/38 and 30/36 specs. On beta I think you guys will be very suprised how simple some specs are but still can push some extra dps when played properly. Besides that I think complexity freaks like myself will get enough joy trying to figure optimal rotation for some specs.

  6. #6
    Aye, you'll most likely be able to pull what would seem like decent DPS now with simple specs and rotations, but after months of theorycrafting they'll most likely be a good deal behind again
    - Hvabehar

  7. #7
    Yes, yes, yes. Call me a noob too, I don't care. Defilemancer is easier for me now after a few months, but it's still hard at times to pay attention to all the mechanics while making sure I cast my void bolt in time.

    Every mage doesn't have hours to practice a rotation outside of raids.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmethar View Post
    Agree to an extend here.

    But I think the better solution woud be to ensure that the complex specs don't get too much in front. In the sense that there should always be an easier macro spamming spec for those preferring that and not capable of pulling off the harder rotations.

    Those easier specs just have to be within ~5-10% of the top DPS specs to make them desirable at all. If a complex spec like Defilemancer gets too far in front we'll end up with the same problem again, which I agree on scares people away from the mage class to some extend :/
    +1

    I like defilemancer. It's a fun spec to play when you don't have any distractions and can focus in on priority-based situational dot management. I like that it's the top st dps spec for mages. What I don't like is that no other spec even comes close. If defilemancer can hit 4.5k easy then surely they could give mages a much simpler rotational dps spec that hits 4.3k or even 4.2k st dps. You'll still have the cream of the crop rising to the top of the charts but now you'll be doubling or tripling the number of mages that a raid leader will be ok with bringing to a dps check fight. The same goes for aoe dps specs as well - give us a nice complicated spec like stormcaller to wipe the floor with but also give us a simple spec that will let more mages get to experience content that they're currently paying for but not getting to go to because they just can't master that insane "rotation".

    While we're on that subject, what about someone who's main spec is not dps? Someone who only has one available slot to put an OS dps build in? They need a single spec which is competitive in all areas but not the best at anything. They need to be able to hit 90% of both the top st dps spec and the top aoe dps spec. It needs to be one of those things where the raid leader can say, "we only need 1 chloro for this fight so can you go dps?" and you can say, "I only have one dps spec but it's pretty good at everything," unlike now where you have to say, "sorry, I only have the 36/30 pyrolock build so my aoe isn't going to be all that great," or "I'm ms chloro so all I have is this 51/15 pyrochon build and while it's great for trash it's going to suck on Ituziel."

  9. #9
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    No, please give me a hard rotation.

  10. #10
    i agree, defile is a super fun spec and you can see amazing results on a good day, but last night for example, we were doing a progression boss and people still are working on getting the mechanics down so i dont have to call things but having to watch timers for the boss and my 5 dots can get pretty hard. i mean if i was a girl i could multi task the hell out of this but im a guy and i cant. i think if there is a spec that can do comparable numbers to someone able to focus on just the rotation that would help me but still when i have the boss down and so does my raid the defile spec is freaking awesome!!!!!

    i guess all and all im fine either way its just lame that i have rogues that can macro everything into 3 buttons and out dps most of us.

  11. #11
    Mage is only my secondary character, but I find the complexity the most fun part of being a Mage, and really the reason I find the class to be the most fun to play. I do understand the point about progression though, most other classes can do their rotation in their sleep so they can focus 100% on mechanics...I would venture to say maxing DPS as a Mage and being flawless on mechanics at the same time on something brand new is something that 99.9% of Mages cannot do.

  12. #12
    I agree on one point mentioned here, variety. It would be nice to have more options for DPS roles but I am 100% against button macro spamming being within 10% of top DPS builds. 36/30 when played well can already come close to 38/28 defilemancer on many fights due to heatwave CD timing and firestorm AOE on adds; and 36/30 really only has to refresh a couple dots and wait for a good time to heatwave.

    From reading a lot of the mage changes though it would appear that cooldown management is going to be something to decide top builds and top DPS, that I don't mind trading dot management for.

  13. #13
    I don't really like rotations. They're inflexible. I think more emphasis on priority systems would not only be simplistic, it'd be more fun and flexible as well, while still allowing for complexity to eek out higher numbers.

  14. #14
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    personally i like how the pyrolock and defilemancer are balanced, you will do slightly less damage with pyro but you have more room for error and dealing with difficult mechanics, but if you do not have many mechanics to deal with or are at least confident with them you can go and boost your damagewith defilemancer. stormcaller has similar tiers of play, if you are not great at the rotation you can still pull some good enough numbers by putting up the stacks and blowing them up. I also expect to see other specs doing decent ST damage or possibly changing what the top ST dpser is to something else, although it looks like it will still be heavy in warlock judging by the buffs to DoT damage especially with those refreshing skills making it easier for MORE people to use it but it will still be out of reach to others

  15. #15
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    There will always be a #1 spec, and i like how Defilemancer rewards you for playing well, so i would like to see that in the next #1 spec.

    I hope there will be more than 2 decent dps specs or at least some more variety, but i'd like to see them have the same relationship as defile vs 36/30, where the tougher one is a head by a few %dps.

  16. #16
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    I would hope for a melee and range specs that r both competitive at least

  17. #17
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    if your only pulling 4.4k-4.6k in 36/30 your bad. dont make the game make up for your shortcomings. i dont want mage to be the next ranger. chloro and archon are not hard so if your mage dps is bad make them go support and let an loldruid go dps.


    WTB SKILL BASED SPEC IN SL

    KTHXBYE

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosrac View Post
    if your only pulling 4.4k-4.6k in 36/30 your bad. dont make the game make up for your shortcomings. i dont want mage to be the next ranger. chloro and archon are not hard so if your mage dps is bad make them go support and let an loldruid go dps.


    WTB SKILL BASED SPEC IN SL

    KTHXBYE
    ladies and gentleman please make some noice for the champion of all

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosrac View Post
    if your only pulling 4.4k-4.6k in 36/30 your bad. dont make the game make up for your shortcomings. i dont want mage to be the next ranger. chloro and archon are not hard so if your mage dps is bad make them go support and let an loldruid go dps.


    WTB SKILL BASED SPEC IN SL

    KTHXBYE
    Everyone should take what carson says with a grain of salt. Good thing Kervik already knows this.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclipze View Post
    Everyone should take what carson says with a grain of salt. Good thing Kervik already knows this.
    He is a dragon rider.

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