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Thread: Pyromancer Feedback

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by s33kNDstroy View Post
    I TOTALLY AGREE! The AE dps is pretty descent, but the single target needs to go waaaay up! A tank class doing 600-650 and we're in the 500's RU KIDDING ME?! This stuff kills me...I'm watching a guy with a war/pal build soloing 4 or 5 mobs at once and making pretty quick work of it and I'm STRUGGLING to kill 2 at once as a pyro supposedly the top of the dps food chain. On mobs my level as a pure pyro I usually don't even bother trying to kill 2 at once because surviving becomes a coin flip. We're all glass right now and not near enough cannon. I finally gave up at level 30 and switched to a mostly elmentalist build with a greater pet just because I got tired of being beaten down and killed so much in this solo centric game. My build now at 43 is something like maxed fireball and flame bolt in pyro, and max damage in everything else on the elem side for my pet. That's been a pretty solid build for me for leveling. I play the pure pyro build now only in groups for the AE. Sadness, we should be doing 750-850 imo.
    Its getting better. I am up to 625 dps which is a huge improvement over 540. Im still hoping for 700 tho.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontra View Post
    Its getting better. I am up to 625 dps which is a huge improvement over 540. Im still hoping for 700 tho.
    So we're up to a tanks dps now...Sadness lol.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by s33kNDstroy View Post
    So we're up to a tanks dps now...Sadness lol.
    Tanks don't do 625DPS. DPS warriors do, but they're that, DPS warriors, not tanks. That's like saying mage DPS is healer DPS because of chloro. Souls have specific purposes, and Warriors are not only tanks, they have 4 tank souls and 4 DPS souls.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Tanks don't do 625DPS. DPS warriors do, but they're that, DPS warriors, not tanks. That's like saying mage DPS is healer DPS because of chloro. Souls have specific purposes, and Warriors are not only tanks, they have 4 tank souls and 4 DPS souls.
    So why would anyone play a cloth wearing Mage with low health when they can play a DPS WARRIOR with double the hitpoints and can wear plate and still do close to or more dps than the supposed top caster class? I'm surprised the whole server isn't playing Pal/War builds.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by s33kNDstroy View Post
    So why would anyone play a cloth wearing Mage with low health when they can play a DPS WARRIOR with double the hitpoints and can wear plate and still do close to or more dps than the supposed top caster class? I'm surprised the whole server isn't playing Pal/War builds.
    Because Hanlo plays a mage.

    In all honesty I do kind of agree with you though. There should definitely be a tier system of dps if there isn't, and if there is it needs some looking at. I understand some warriors wanting to dps but really they should either have to sacrifice their armor and hp, or just have it lowered. I'm not playing a mage just to be masochistic, I'm doing it for damage. When I heard that beastmasters were doing something crazy like 900 dps, I just about killed myself.

  6. #86
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    Then maybe Pyromancer spells range should be reduced to 2meters. Warriors in DPS spec don't have more hp than mages, they have more armor which is largely irrelevant in most cases(at most they're gonna take one hit more than a mage to splat, but since they're closer to the mob if they pull aggro, they also die faster). You trade range for armor, that's how it's balanced. Now the souls are not balanced in terms of DPS which is why warriors are doing MORE(to be fair, they're doing more than everyone else). Once they get balanced however, I would expect DPS specs of mages, rogues, warriors and clerics to be equal, because they're DPS specs and your calling has little impact on that choice, it's the whole point of the soul system. If you have 4DPS souls as a warrior, but not one of them is good DPS, then what's the point? Might as well remove them, remove riftstalkers and justicars and have warriors as the only tanks, then remove all DPS specs of the cleric and chloro and have clerics be the only healers etc. Then we can have a nice 4class game, and rename it to Gauntlet: Planes of Telara.

    You can have tiers between DPS souls, but the best DPS soul of all callings should be roughly equal in DPS, assuming you invest all your points for DPS purposes(so for example you don't spend 13points in chloro for heals). Sure if a warrior spend 20points getting defensive stuff in paladin/reaver so he can slap a shield and offtank does as much dps as a pure pyromancer/warlock mage, then there's a problem, but if a pure champion/paragon warrior does, it's how it should be.

  7. #87
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    To effectively dps as a pyro, you have to get burning bright which reduces hp by 18%. That means my hp is usually in the 3k ranges. I for one KNOW I haven't seen a warrior, regardless of spec, anywhere near that number at 50.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Then maybe Pyromancer spells range should be reduced to 2meters. Warriors in DPS spec don't have more hp than mages, they have more armor which is largely irrelevant in most cases(at most they're gonna take one hit more than a mage to splat, but since they're closer to the mob if they pull aggro, they also die faster). You trade range for armor, that's how it's balanced. Now the souls are not balanced in terms of DPS which is why warriors are doing MORE(to be fair, they're doing more than everyone else). Once they get balanced however, I would expect DPS specs of mages, rogues, warriors and clerics to be equal, because they're DPS specs and your calling has little impact on that choice, it's the whole point of the soul system. If you have 4DPS souls as a warrior, but not one of them is good DPS, then what's the point? Might as well remove them, remove riftstalkers and justicars and have warriors as the only tanks, then remove all DPS specs of the cleric and chloro and have clerics be the only healers etc. Then we can have a nice 4class game, and rename it to Gauntlet: Planes of Telara.

    You can have tiers between DPS souls, but the best DPS soul of all callings should be roughly equal in DPS, assuming you invest all your points for DPS purposes(so for example you don't spend 13points in chloro for heals). Sure if a warrior spend 20points getting defensive stuff in paladin/reaver so he can slap a shield and offtank does as much dps as a pure pyromancer/warlock mage, then there's a problem, but if a pure champion/paragon warrior does, it's how it should be.
    I don't agree. Like Hanlo said, there's no tank with 3K HP. Besides that, take the PVP aspect away and then so you have a Pyro trying to solo 3 mobs maybe a level or 2 higher than him/her and getting beat down, and then you have a Warrior dps build WEARING ARMOR killing them all no problem with all kinds of life left. That's the difference.

    And how about this for an example. There's a PVP fight between an Elementalist with a Pet against a Warrior dps build. Most of the Mages power to attack is in the pet, so the Warrior dps walks in and hacks the caster apart while the pets barely scratching the guy wearing plate. That's kinda brutal.

    I just think dps needs to have a little more of a scale to it. Otherwise like I said who will want to play a Mage getting owned all the time. There's nothing that casterly about casters to me at the moment anyway, I'm just mashing fireball over and over again most of the time, there's no utility spells, and one int buff. Plus it's just insanely annoying to have to cast ground everytime you move 2 feet. That's another thing, what good is ground in PVP or in fights where you have to move around. Like I'm going to stop and take 5 seconds to cast ground in a PVP fight when I get jumped. I'll be dead by then. When ground is the thing that adds a nice boost to dps, and you can't really use it, because you don't have time, you're at at even greater disadvantage if that's being factored into the dps balance. I really think they should make ground into an aura like someone else suggested, make it a buff that moves with the caster.

    Another difference with the ground vs a Warrior is. The first move a Mage has to make to get their damage bonus, is to stand there and take time casting a ground, not to mention trying to judge the max distance between them and the mob they're attacking so that they can get an extra spell off before the mob runs in and starts whacking on them. A Warrior just runs in does a charge and their first move is an attack. It's twice as tedious now playing a caster with the ground thing.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by s33kNDstroy View Post
    Another difference with the ground vs a Warrior is. The first move a Mage has to make to get their damage bonus, is to stand there and take time casting a ground, not to mention trying to judge the max distance between them and the mob they're attacking so that they can get an extra spell off before the mob runs in and starts whacking on them.
    This is why I continue to ask for grounding spells to be instant cast.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    To effectively dps as a pyro, you have to get burning bright which reduces hp by 18%. That means my hp is usually in the 3k ranges. I for one KNOW I haven't seen a warrior, regardless of spec, anywhere near that number at 50.
    This is still irrelevant and an issue with pyromancers only, which falls into soul balance, not callings balance. Warlocks can get better defensive abilities than any of the warrior DPS specs, and they get additional hp and lots of lifestealing abilities.

    Then there's the whole PvP argument which is also irrelevant, range in pvp is even more important than it is in PvE, being able to shoot people from spots they might not be able to reach/see or simply from behind your own melee line, that's a lot stronger than having plate armor. Wether the Pyromancer is a strong pvp soul or not doesn't mean warriors should be nerfed or buffed in comparison, because again this is mostly soul balance, try playing a warlock in pvp and tell me mages are weak or squishy, that's because warlock overall is in a much better state when it comes to balance than pyromancer is. PvP is a different beast altogether anyway, and your DPS has usually 0impact on wether your class is good at pvp or not, what matters is burst and control, 2 things pyromancers kinda suck at currently. Balancing DPS is from a PvE perspective, then once that's done we can look at the PvP goodies, but a good PvE soul is not necessarily gonna be a good PvP soul. Pyromancer seems however kinda designed to be a PvP soul, and it's gonna need some serious buffs for it.

    A lot of souls, including Pyromancer, aren't balanced currently in terms of damage output, or they don't have the polish they need for their various abilities(what's off the GCD, values discussion like burning bright hp reduction vs the defensive tools in the tree, spells being subpar in all situations like withering flames, etc). That doesn't mean however that those souls should be buffed to be superior to DPS spec of other callings, that simply means they should be buffed to be equal to other callings.

    The design that DPS specs of classes that can tank should do less damage than classes that can't is completely outdated, but more importantly completely out of place in a game like Rift which is all about Roles and Souls specific usage. Wariors ARE NOT TANKS. Warriors are melee characters that use energy and platemail while having access to all weapon types. They do happen to have tank souls, but so do Clerics and Rogues. They're not supposed to do less damage because IF THEY CHANGE ROLES they can tank. This is stupid. Should mages do less damage because they can heal? Then everyone does less damage because there's a sub role in each calling. If a warrior invests all 51points into DPS stuff, then he shouldn't be doing less(or more) DPS than a mage, or a rogue, or a cleric, who invest 51points into DPS. There will be variations because it's a mmo and perfect balance is unrealistic, but the devs should long for an equal DPS between all DPS specs.

    You can't pull the wow card and be like "oh I'm playing a mage/warlock/rogue/hunter and I only have 3 DPS spec so I should do more DPS than warriors/druids/shamans/paladins/DK because they can tank/heal/DPS". You can't pick the EQ/VG card either and be like "oh I picked a pure DPS class so tanks and healers should do less than me". In this game, you pick a calling that has 8 souls, if you decide you don't want to play chloro or riftstalker as a mage or a rogue, that's entirely your choice, but you did not pick a pure DPS class that can only do DPS and as such have to be superior to other callings because they can do other stuff. Unless rift and chloro end up being crap vs warrior tanks or cleric healers, and then yeah it'd be a valid point, but they've been trying pretty hard to make chloro a viable solo healer. But it'd still be wrong, because as long as a warrior is using a DPS soul, he's a DPS character, not a tank. Now if we compare to DPS of a tank soul, then it should be lower, if we compare to DPS of a soul like Archon or Chloromancer for mages, it should be lower because it brings a lot of utility. But if we compare Pyromancer, Warlock, Elementalist, Riftblade, Champion, Paragon, Assassin, Bladedancer, Marksman etc, they should be within 5% of each other in the best case scenario.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontra View Post
    This is why I continue to ask for grounding spells to be instant cast.
    Even if they made it instant cast, you still have to spend a few seconds to look and make sure you're pressing the right hot key to cast it, so then you get that down and then you start to cast your main attack spell. Whereas a melee class is already buffed before they start and they can just run in and start slashing.

    PLUS I do not want to have to cast a spell like that 500 times a night running around questing. It's insanity.

    Imagine if a Warrior type had to cast something like a self haste buff EVERY TIME THEY MOVED 2 FEET, do you think we would hear about that?

  12. #92
    @ Pyros.

    I know what you're saying, you think any class that goes full dps spec should be equal or very close to equal in dps with any other full dps spec, be it mage or warrior. That's what I disagree with. I think a class that wears plate or chain and has more hit points should do less damage, period. There has to be a balance kept to that advantage, otherwise like I said everyone ends up playing a War/Pal or a Warlock as you pointed out. Some classes/builds seem over powered at the moment.

    One way I can think of to balance that out without adjusting dps, is make it so that the higher damaging skills in the Melee trees won't work unless the person is wearing cloth. That's fair. Basically make them into monks.

    A lot of souls, including Pyromancer, aren't balanced currently in terms of damage output, or they don't have the polish they need for their various abilities
    Exactly, that's why we're here talking about it.

  13. #93
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    Thought I'd toss in some info here. We're aware the DPS numbers of various classes and souls are in different spots in many, if not most, cases. We're looking at those numbers and will be working on getting them in line. As more on that is figured out, and I know what impact it will have on the Mage souls, I'll keep everyone updated as I can.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kervik View Post
    Thought I'd toss in some info here. We're aware the DPS numbers of various classes and souls are in different spots in many, if not most, cases. We're looking at those numbers and will be working on getting them in line. As more on that is figured out, and I know what impact it will have on the Mage souls, I'll keep everyone updated as I can.
    Thanks Kervik. Do you think you could give an explanation as to where these numbers should be at. Should the pyromancer be considered TOP Dps, and if so what kind of numbers are we shooting for?

    PS: Please give withering flames some love.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontra View Post
    Thanks Kervik. Do you think you could give an explanation as to where these numbers should be at. Should the pyromancer be considered TOP Dps, and if so what kind of numbers are we shooting for?

    PS: Please give withering flames some love.
    Part of working on getting the numbers in line is figuring out what we're shooting for in terms of numbers, particularly at max level. Unfortunately that means at the moment I don't have any specifics available to give out. On the other hand though, the numbers people are seeing now is still useful though, since it will help make the process faster once things get more well defined.

    Regarding withering flames, there's a buff for it coming in one of the next updates. It should be a lot closer to where it needs to be with this one, but I'm still pretty sure it will need some additional tweaks.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kervik View Post
    Part of working on getting the numbers in line is figuring out what we're shooting for in terms of numbers, particularly at max level. Unfortunately that means at the moment I don't have any specifics available to give out. On the other hand though, the numbers people are seeing now is still useful though, since it will help make the process faster once things get more well defined.

    Regarding withering flames, there's a buff for it coming in one of the next updates. It should be a lot closer to where it needs to be with this one, but I'm still pretty sure it will need some additional tweaks.
    Cool, I can understand that. I spend countless hours on the test dummy with every patch so I'll keep posting the numbers. Herre are a couple current bugs still:
    1.) If you enable internalize charge and start casting firestorm you can then untoggle internalize charge while firestorm is still casting, and still recieve the 50% bonus from it while not consuming charge
    2.) Still stack issues with opportunity and pyro armor procs. If both procs are up cinder burst should have a priority to use the pyro proc and leave opportunity for the next spell.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontra View Post
    Cool, I can understand that. I spend countless hours on the test dummy with every patch so I'll keep posting the numbers. Herre are a couple current bugs still:
    1.) If you enable internalize charge and start casting firestorm you can then untoggle internalize charge while firestorm is still casting, and still recieve the 50% bonus from it while not consuming charge
    2.) Still stack issues with opportunity and pyro armor procs. If both procs are up cinder burst should have a priority to use the pyro proc and leave opportunity for the next spell.
    That charge thing, it's not a pyromancer thing, it's a mage thing, it works with every abilities that increase dmg like this, for example as stormcaller you can turn on and off the electrical 15%dmg charge buff before using Lightning Storm, or you can do it with Entropic Veil and any channeling(or dots/dot-like spells like Corrosion, turn it on, cast corrosion, turn it off, corrosion does 19%more dmg for duration). It is very visible on the pyromancer AE though, because it's a large amount and you get these abilities easy. You can also do it with 51warlock+mortality for example which is less common, but much more devastating.

    This is an issue I raised when I started with how dots are calculated entirely on casts instead of dynamically. Same reason either all of it crit or none of it. Channeling spells use the same mechanic, so gonna need some changes on the way charge buffs apply their dmg.

  18. #98
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    The recent changes to active charge based abilities not allowing you to gain charge while its on was a huge nerf to pyro dps. We rely heavily on Internalize Charge to give us that boost to give respectable dps numbers. The current change lowered my average test dummy parses from 650dps to 550 dps. Thats quite a significant nerf to damage.

    I started a thread for feedback on this matter at:
    http://ch1.goodtimes.trionworlds.com...9098#post19098

  19. #99
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    please look at the lockdown and the massburn spells.

    These spells are suppose to give you an additional 5% and 15% dps when the spell is cast on the the mobs. If the mobs are immune to the stun or snare effects they are also immune to the additional dps increase and this should not be the case. Even if you cnnot be stunned rooted or snared the debuffs should still be put on you.

    Also even if you are stunned, rooted or snared imo the dps increase should last longer then 5 or 8 seconds being that only allows you to cast 1-3 spells max.

    For example i would cast Lockdown then massburn just to get the additional 20% dps increase but that only allows about 4 seconds of dps total from firestorm.

    If you would consider this i would allow lock down to give a debuff for 20 seconds of 5% fire damage increase and massburn a 10 - 15 second dps debuff increase that way at least we are able to cast firestorm and get the total spell cast.

  20. #100
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    So what do you Pyromancers think of today's Patch?

    Before the patch I really enjoyed playing the pyro for AE DPS, but now? We did Foul Cascade with 2 Mages today, me as a Pyro and a warlock. AE and single DPS seem even now, so I had no reason anymore to play my Pyromancer.

    I don't get why it got nerfed in the first place, from my understanding Pyros are supposed to do much more AE DPS than a lock, where a lock does much more single DPS?

    If that's the case this has to be looked into again.

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