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Thread: Way to fix DPS clerics.

  1. #1

    Way to fix DPS clerics.

    Best way to fix MDPS (Melee DPS) clerics is by either giving them a passive that increases their damage but reduces their heals for every point spent in a mdps tree or by giving them stances that increases mdps and reduce heals by like 50% (Could be more, depends on you TRION.). It's as simple as that, no further changes even need to be implemented, you can also fix cleric RDPS (ranged dps) clerics by doing the same thing, either give them a stance that increases dps and reduces healing or a passive based on points spent in a dps tree. This way people will not claim that dps clerics can do both dps and heal, it's that simple, they will sacrifice a lot of healing to dps. Lifetaps won't be affected by this of course so that they can remain viable as they are based on damage.

  2. #2
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    I dont see a reason to reduce the healing thou.
    Right now with the mobs doing the damage they do(especially the Rogue ones), and the massive amount of OP player Rogues, our healing should really be increased.. even if our damage is increased..

    Im playing a Sentinel. A soul thats supposed to have a strong defense.
    Yet if i encounter a player Rogue i feel anything but defensive.
    When i encounter a player Rogue(Assassin?) i spend the few seconds im alive, "disabled".
    Sure im guessing that if i had the pvp soul that i might be able to counter that problem.
    Ofcourse the pvp soul ability to counter it, is on a cooldown and probably wont help me the next time i get disabled..


    But anyway, we(Sentinels) could sure use some more damage.
    I can quest as a sentinel but its so slow, and i seem to spend most of my time healing myself.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kausten View Post
    I dont see a reason to reduce the healing thou.
    Right now with the mobs doing the damage they do(especially the Rogue ones), and the massive amount of OP player Rogues, our healing should really be increased.. even if our damage is increased..

    Im playing a Sentinel. A soul thats supposed to have a strong defense.
    Yet if i encounter a player Rogue i feel anything but defensive.
    When i encounter a player Rogue(Assassin?) i spend the few seconds im alive, "disabled".
    Sure im guessing that if i had the pvp soul that i might be able to counter that problem.
    Ofcourse the pvp soul ability to counter it, is on a cooldown and probably wont help me the next time i get disabled..


    But anyway, we(Sentinels) could sure use some more damage.
    I can quest as a sentinel but its so slow, and i seem to spend most of my time healing myself.
    Ok, I don't think people around these forums know how to read, I'm starting to lose hope on mankind. A dps stance will not affect your heals if you're in a healing spec as you won't even have access to said stance. A stance is something you turn on, not something that is always on. Basically, if you want to dps as a cleric, you would switch to your dps stance (With a reduction to healing.), if you want to heal and do sub-par dps then take off your dps stance. It would be entirely optional if they implement it, if you want to continue sucking at dps then don't turn on the stance, if you want to become a dps class then you'll get your healing reduced when turning on the dps stance. Lifetaps won't be affected by the heal reduction as they aren't heals so life-tap healing specs will still remain viable. Melee healers that heal by dpsing, won't have reduced healing because melee heals are life-taps and not heals.

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    Either you sacrifice one thing to be good at another or be sub par at everything. One gets a raid spot, we should not be able be be great at everything.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyra View Post
    Either you sacrifice one thing to be good at another or be sub par at everything. One gets a raid spot, we should not be able be be great at everything.
    Yes it's exactly what I'm getting at, there are a lot of mis-informed people on the beta forums that think this is a nerf and that I'm asking for healing to be nerfed. Way too many people that don't know how to read on the beta forums. A stance mechanic would be entirely optional, if you want to be sub par at everything don't use the stance, if you want to dps, enable the stance. Some people don't seem to get it. To increase our dps, Trion would have to reduce our healing if we're specced for dps. One of the best ways to do that is by having an optional stance mechanic that increases your dps while reducing healing.

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    Ok, then by that logic, rogues should also have the same type of mechanic, since most of the rogue classes not only can deal an insane amount of dps, but they can also spec to be too elusive to hit. That in my opinion makes them defensive as well as offensive. While i understand your theory, the logic behind it is aimed mainly at clerics, which makes them limited to one thing at a time only, and warriors in tank spec can still deal out a respectable amount of damage, and mages using chloromancer can deal damage as well. Forcing a particular class that some people enjoy playing to choose to be either sub-par in anything, but insisting that they do nothing to any other classes is ridiculous.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by chochi135 View Post
    Ok, then by that logic, rogues should also have the same type of mechanic, since most of the rogue classes not only can deal an insane amount of dps, but they can also spec to be too elusive to hit. That in my opinion makes them defensive as well as offensive. While i understand your theory, the logic behind it is aimed mainly at clerics, which makes them limited to one thing at a time only, and warriors in tank spec can still deal out a respectable amount of damage, and mages using chloromancer can deal damage as well. And to say people are stupid or cant read because they don't agree with your opinion is pretty juvenile. Don't insult people because they have different view points as you. Forcing a particular class that some people enjoy playing to choose to be either sub-par in anything, but insisting that they do nothing to any other classes is ridiculous.
    I editted my post, why couldn't you just quote the editted post? I did it to be nice and to avoid people like you claiming that I'm calling everyone that doesn't agree with me an idiot. I'm calling it as it is, there are a lot of highly mis-informed people on the beta forums theory crafting and trying to get callings/souls nerfed without knowing how the mechanics work. That is where me pointing that out comes from, there are a lot of valid opinions that I respect and don't bother to disagree with. When it comes to someone posting idiotic statements though without any basis/merit, that I have to point out and I call it out like it is.

    But yes, to answer your question, DPS clerics are sub-par at healing and dps atm, can you guess why? Trion doesn't want to increase their dps because some people might heavily spec into a healing soul and a dps soul so that they'll be able to do both. The stance mechanic that I'm suggesting can solve that. If you don't use the stance you'll be sub-par at everything as it is now, if you use the stance you'll be a better dps but with reduced heals; just to clarify my points a bit. You're either good at healing or good at dpsing, can't be good at both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empathetic View Post
    I editted my post, why couldn't you just quote the editted post? I did it to be nice and to avoid people like you claiming that I'm calling everyone that doesn't agree with me an idiot. I'm calling it as it is, there are a lot of highly mis-informed people on the beta forums theory crafting and trying to get callings/souls nerfed without knowing how the mechanics work. That is where me pointing that out comes from, there are a lot of valid opinions that I respect and don't bother to disagree with. When it comes to someone posting idiotic statements though without any basis/merit, that I have to point out and I call it out like it is. But yes, to answer your question, DPS clerics are sub-par at healing and dps atm, can you guess why? Trion doesn't want to increase their dps because some people might heavily spec into a healing soul and a dps soul so that they'll be able to do both. The stance mechanic that I'm suggesting can solve that.
    I apologize if you did change it. You may have changed it while i was typing my reply.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by chochi135 View Post
    I apologize if you did change it. You may have changed it while i was typing my reply.
    It's ok dude, you might have been typing a response while I did a quick edit, i type insanely fast so.. I also added more to that quoted post and formatted it a bit.

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    So here is my point. If a warrior or rogue or mage attack a cleric, all they can do, if they are in healing spec, is heal themselves, they have no way of retaliating. The mage can kite them, the rogue can disable them and dodge all their attacks, and the warrior can mitigate all the dps they can muster. Warriors have a class that can heal them significantly, same with the rogue as a bard, and the mage as chloromancer. And while doing the healing to themselves, they have no reduction in the damage they produce. The idea is putting the cleric class at a major disadvantage. Less people will play them. It is a scenario that has been played out in many many mmos. All i'm saying, it the situation need to be looked at and handled with carefully. I also edited my other post to remove your quote and my comment on it. Cheers to you for being very civil. And while even in a stance that increases their dps, and reducing their healing, if it increased their damage mitigation to protect them against the major dps from warriors and rogues, that may be an acceptable compromise. But it still need a better look into it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by chochi135 View Post
    So here is my point. If a warrior or rogue or mage attack a cleric, all they can do, if they are in healing spec, is heal themselves, they have no way of retaliating. The mage can kite them, the rogue can disable them and dodge all their attacks, and the warrior can mitigate all the dps they can muster. Warriors have a class that can heal them significantly, same with the rogue as a bard, and the mage as chloromancer. And while doing the healing to themselves, they have no reduction in the damage they produce. The idea is putting the cleric class at a major disadvantage. Less people will play them. It is a scenario that has been played out in many many mmos. All i'm saying, it the situation need to be looked at and handled with carefully.
    I understand your points, as I have said, the stance mechanic would be completely optional as it's a stance. Right now, clerics can't kill those classes in the situations you mentioned because of their lack-luster dps. Trion won't increase their dps because they can also heal themselves and have access to more heals/utlility than those other souls you mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chochi135 View Post
    So here is my point. If a warrior or rogue or mage attack a cleric, all they can do, if they are in healing spec, is heal themselves, they have no way of retaliating. The mage can kite them, the rogue can disable them and dodge all their attacks, and the warrior can mitigate all the dps they can muster. Warriors have a class that can heal them significantly, same with the rogue as a bard, and the mage as chloromancer. And while doing the healing to themselves, they have no reduction in the damage they produce. The idea is putting the cleric class at a major disadvantage. Less people will play them. It is a scenario that has been played out in many many mmos. All i'm saying, it the situation need to be looked at and handled with carefully. I also edited my other post to remove your quote and my comment on it. Cheers to you for being very civil.
    Warriors have a class that can heal themselves significantly every 2-10mins. Unless you mean reaver, then it's not significantly at all. Bard healing output is absolutely terrible unless you consider the whole group, the heals are all spread around which is rarely useful besides specific encounters, plus bard DPS is abyssmal(lower than tanks). Mages chloromancer DPS is ok, lower than all DPS specs by a lot though, but at or higher than tank level. They lack versatility in healing output though, can only main heal one target due to synthesis, don't really have good healing cooldowns besides the full heal which requires you to dispel yourself after using it else you heal for 50%less for an extended period of time(so it takes 2GCD to use).

    Also he didn't say the stance has to be switched only out of combat. That said a stance isn't terribly a good idea in my opinion. Mages can technically spec 31chloro 31DPS and switch at will between the 2, it's just not gonna be optimal at either. You don't have to balance it any other way than that. Cleric DPS spec should do good DPS, Cleric healing specs should heal well, and if you want to spec 31shaman 31sentinel you can do both, but you'll do less damage and less healing than if you speced all 66points into healing talents or 66pts into melee dps talents. It's not like having both you can somehow get past the GCD, so for every GCD, you still have to choose between casting a healing spell, or a DPS spell, which means you're never really doing both at the same time(justicar excluded, but the healing output is pretty low from Cavalier).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Warriors have a class that can heal themselves significantly every 2-10mins. Unless you mean reaver, then it's not significantly at all. Bard healing output is absolutely terrible unless you consider the whole group, the heals are all spread around which is rarely useful besides specific encounters, plus bard DPS is abyssmal(lower than tanks). Mages chloromancer DPS is ok, lower than all DPS specs by a lot though, but at or higher than tank level. They lack versatility in healing output though, can only main heal one target due to synthesis, don't really have good healing cooldowns besides the full heal which requires you to dispel yourself after using it else you heal for 50%less for an extended period of time(so it takes 2GCD to use).

    Also he didn't say the stance has to be switched only out of combat. That said a stance isn't terribly a good idea in my opinion. Mages can technically spec 31chloro 31DPS and switch at will between the 2, it's just not gonna be optimal at either. You don't have to balance it any other way than that. Cleric DPS spec should do good DPS, Cleric healing specs should heal well, and if you want to spec 31shaman 31sentinel you can do both, but you'll do less damage and less healing than if you speced all 66points into healing talents or 66pts into melee dps talents. It's not like having both you can somehow get past the GCD, so for every GCD, you still have to choose between casting a healing spell, or a DPS spell, which means you're never really doing both at the same time(justicar excluded, but the healing output is pretty low from Cavalier).
    The problem is that we can't do good dps even when speccing fully into two dps trees, druid with shaman. I'm sure you know this because you've been here for awhile as do other people. Something needs to be done so that people that want to play dps clerics can actually dps or they might as well remove the souls. But yeah, I never said that the stance could only be switched out of combat, it should have a CD though so that people can't switch from dps to healing on the fly without any penalties. If you take off the stance be prepared to do better healing but lower dps for awhile.

    I do agree with you and everyone else that's saying the trees should be looked at and higher damage skills should be put higher up as more points are invested but I don't know if they would do that as someone could spend a lot of points on a dps soul then the other points in a healing soul, while being able to dps for a lot and healing good.
    We need something for people that want to play a dps cleric on release, at this point I'm willing to take anything.

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    Making the stance a combat allowable switch defeats the purpose of having the stance at all, which means they can do even more dps and switch back and heal themselves too, what would the point of it be then? And although bards may not put out that much dps, they can be paired with souls that do, and their heals coupled with parry and dodge and great dps makes them deadly. Chloromancers do great paired with dps mage souls. Warriors when dual wielding and wearing plate armor, and having life taps and self heals, are very very deadly. My cleric can beat warriors and rogues in duels, and even sometimes without dropping below 50% life, but it takes time to get them down, but i enjoy the fact that i can solo with my cleric, and hold my own in a pvp fight.Take that away and give me one more mechanic i have to play around and gcds and timers, will just make them a frustrating class, and group reliant. I don't really think they are any more op'd than any other class. While when in a dps mode they can heal, it isn't enough to really be used in an instance at all. Trust me, i have tried.

  15. #15
    Currently melee clerics have the highest AOE damage ingame, much higher than any class can pull

    3 Targets, self buffed, aoe dmg:

    30 seconds sustained : 3.5k dps
    10 second burst : 7.5k dps

    Using ACT parser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g0kuenuan View Post
    Currently melee clerics have the highest AOE damage ingame, much higher than any class can pull

    3 Targets, self buffed, aoe dmg:

    30 seconds sustained : 3.5k dps
    10 second burst : 7.5k dps

    Using ACT parser.
    3.5 and 7.5 seem way to high, looking at other parses it seems to be between 500-650dps on average, unless there is something unusual in the encounter. What level are you? What spec, which mobs, can you link a screeshot of the parse in ACT ?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chochi135 View Post
    So here is my point. If a warrior or rogue or mage attack a cleric, all they can do, if they are in healing spec, is heal themselves, they have no way of retaliating. The mage can kite them, the rogue can disable them and dodge all their attacks, and the warrior can mitigate all the dps they can muster. Warriors have a class that can heal them significantly, same with the rogue as a bard, and the mage as chloromancer. And while doing the healing to themselves, they have no reduction in the damage they produce. The idea is putting the cleric class at a major disadvantage. Less people will play them. It is a scenario that has been played out in many many mmos. All i'm saying, it the situation need to be looked at and handled with carefully. I also edited my other post to remove your quote and my comment on it. Cheers to you for being very civil. And while even in a stance that increases their dps, and reducing their healing, if it increased their damage mitigation to protect them against the major dps from warriors and rogues, that may be an acceptable compromise. But it still need a better look into it.
    Rogue as a Bard sacrifices a lot of DPS for healing. Bard DPS is low. Tickle Tickle Tickle Tickle Pinch is how bard DPS goes. They do about 1/3rd the damage a Ranger/Marksman in my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lice View Post
    3.5 and 7.5 seem way to high, looking at other parses it seems to be between 500-650dps on average, unless there is something unusual in the encounter. What level are you? What spec, which mobs, can you link a screeshot of the parse in ACT ?
    The numbers are right, but seriously it's post like that ruining the class in the first place. 10 sec parse that can only happen every 2minutes is silly to report and comment highest AoE DPS in the game. Lets fight something with more than 20k HP and last longer than 20 seconds.

    Pretty sure the devs were mailed the log, but I got similar numbers in realm of the fae, the not dying was the hard part since shamans have no aggro reductions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyra View Post
    The numbers are right, but seriously it's post like that ruining the class in the first place. 10 sec parse that can only happen every 2minutes is silly to report and comment highest AoE DPS in the game. Lets fight something with more than 20k HP and last longer than 20 seconds.

    Pretty sure the devs were mailed the log, but I got similar numbers in realm of the fae, the not dying was the hard part since shamans have no aggro reductions.
    i suppose your right 3 targets 40 seconds, i would class that all as burst, then again if your level 40 with level 30 mobs your going to get quick high DPS, but was not sure what the crieria was for 7.5kDPS level, spec, resists, crits etc

    (30 * 3.5) + (10 * 7.5) /3 = 60k health each


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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by g0kuenuan View Post
    Currently melee clerics have the highest AOE damage ingame, much higher than any class can pull

    3 Targets, self buffed, aoe dmg:

    30 seconds sustained : 3.5k dps
    10 second burst : 7.5k dps

    Using ACT parser.
    Are u just that stupid? Really?

    What does this bring to the topic at all? 10 and 30 sec parses of trash aoe, ******* hilarious when people post such irrelevant trash to justify the state clerics are in.

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