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Thread: Cleric log parses for Zibnik

  1. #21
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    AOE dps doesn't count when you don't mention how many targets you're attacking and for how long.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyra View Post
    Experts have the same problem, the players/testers are going to make or break this game by submitting feedback

    For the tip top shape necessary for release my only suggestion would be to schedule a dungeon run with a dev and go through each boss letting the dev see whats broken and whats not (darkening deeps came to mind before it was fixed) let him take notes then gib the boss move to the next for more notes.

    I like hard content but that's because I play with premades at the moment classes and dungeons are not tuned for "fun" they are tuned for MVP or don't bring it.
    This is quite true. Deepstrike Mines I am thinking of in particular. The last boss has a ton of hit points, too many. The fight is doable, but only with a "perfect" group. 2 ranged DPS, Bard, Cleric, and a Warrior tank. Haven't been able to pull it off with any other configuration. Also in that instance, if the tank doesn't have at least 3.5k armor, forget it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draegan View Post
    It's the nature of the fight. Duke is more of an execution fight than a dps race.
    Its 1 fight, in the whole game. You don't balance an entire calling around it.

    Dps parses should be tested on boss dummies and NOTHING ELSE right now.

    MAX potential single target dps and MAX potential aoe dps is what is important, this is best tested in a controlled environment.(read: test dummies)

    Nobody cares if a Justicar can do 5 million dps on 1 raid encounter because it has lots of aoe crap and an overpowered aoe ability, that is not the standard by which you balance a calling. Get a clue people, ******* aoe is irrelevant. Look outside the box, Greenscale is not and will not be the only encounter in the game.

  4. #24
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    It's not 1000DPS on AE. It's 1000DPS over a 2min fight that has a strong AE phase. The cleric, like all other AErs, spike up to 5k DPS during the AE phase, which is irrelevant you don't take a DPS figure on a 20secs sample anyway. Same for 650DPS, that's over 2mins, considering movement and switching targets.

    Dummy numbers aren't more useful than actual raid parses. They're useful to figure some things, but classes scale differently on raids, because of movement involved(favoring ranged), target changes(favoring DD over DoT), multi targets close(favoring incidental AEs like warrior/rogue stuff vs dedicated AE spells), massive AE phase(favoring ground targetted AE users) and buffs/debuffs available to a raid. You can parse the same as a rogue on a dummy, but parse less in a static tank and spank fight only because of how debuffs and buffs affect rogues over clerics, so it's not a better way to compare, just another way to do it.

    Now if you actually have cleric dummy parses, do post them, but what's the point of whining that the only piece of actual information besides "we so weak bro" isn't valid because it's not what you want. I've seen many people complain about clerics, but almost none with actual numbers, besides Trog(forgot his forum name, Tzsomething?) a while ago. Takes 5mins to log in a cleric, respec, and beat on a dummy for 2mins and parse it, yet no one is doing it? When mages complained about DPS, there were like 4-5 detailed post about rotations, spec and dummy DPS to compare to and that's how we found out even after the elem/SC nerf we could still parse high using the pyro/archon build.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Dummy numbers aren't more useful than actual raid parses. They're useful to figure some things, but classes scale differently on raids, because of movement involved(favoring ranged), target changes(favoring DD over DoT), multi targets close(favoring incidental AEs like warrior/rogue stuff vs dedicated AE spells), massive AE phase(favoring ground targetted AE users) and buffs/debuffs available to a raid.
    You realise you further prove my point in this paragraph right? As you said yourself, raid parses take into account such elements as movement, multiple targets, buffs and debuffs that are present etc.
    You can't balance around having to move in a certain fight or certain encounters needing a target swap, some people excel on certain fights and some don't. You balance around the max potential a class can do, it *its own* ideal situation.
    Dummies is a controlled environment, you can have nothing but you and your target or you can add buffs/debuffs as required. Its the ideal testing platform, short of a boss mob that would stand their a get hit for hours.
    If a Mage can do 2k dps on a dummy and a Warrior does 2k dps on the same dummy, thats balance. On a raid fight, the Mage might parse 2200 and the Warrior 1500, because the warrior had to move. Thats still balanced, because in a fight where the melee don't move but mages need to move or target swap the Warrior will be the one doing 2200 while the mage does 1500. So long as they do equal dps in situations that are ideal for their calling, its balanced.
    Currently Cleric has no ideal situation, we are poor in a straight up tank and spank which is the ideal for EVERY calling. So we are poor in every aspect.(discounting some dumb 6 target Even Justice spam)


    I'd parse but i'm not 50, i'm 45 right now and lost hope of pushing higher and downloading third party programs just to parse what we all know already, 500-600dps single target...... which is damn low!

    Not to mention I need to get through expert dungeons to get best in slot gear, i'm from europe and nobody plays in my timezone on Omega. Sadly, I picked a stupid server it seems and joined alpha too late, so my contribution to end game balance will be much less.
    The saddest part is people like me, without the means to really provide this data, are the only people left on these boards seeking cleric help. Everyone else just walked a month ago...

  6. #26
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    Well you're right, dummy parses are a constant, but only if you do them with an almost full group that provides all buffs and debuffs you'll have in a raid, because not every class is gonna scale the same depending on those. Say you compare a build with 50%crit dmg from elementalist and another without it. In a raid, you get at least 10%crit more than usual, and usually more like 15% more. That'd make a pretty big difference between the 2 builds based on wether or not you have the raid buffs and debuffs available at the dummy. You might parse roughly the same on dummy, but have a 10%difference in an actual raid fight(comparing 2mages so they have the same specific issues).

    If you compare an inquis and a mage DPS in a raid setting, you're getting a fair comparison. If you compare a rogue and a melee cleric, you're getting a fair comparison. However and that's where it gets interesting, raid will add other factors that might skew the comparison and that's where balance needs to be looked at. For example, with the rogue vs melee cleric, maybe on a dummy they'll do the same DPS, but maybe rogues will be able to keep that DPS decently up on fight that require heavy movement due to having ranged attacks too. That makes the cleric worse than the rogue and something might need to be done there. Dummy parses don't show everything at all, and they sure don't show the theorical maximum DPS unless you do it with a group. Even then, the dummy stats are vastly different than a raid boss stat(no resist, lower level, lower armor, no dodge/parry it seems).

    We could compare dummy DPS though to begin with, if someone posted theirs. Rotation, gear, spec, DPS over 2mins.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    For example, with the rogue vs melee cleric, maybe on a dummy they'll do the same DPS, but maybe rogues will be able to keep that DPS decently up on fight that require heavy movement due to having ranged attacks too. That makes the cleric worse than the rogue and something might need to be done there.
    This really makes no sense, think about what your saying. Your talking about balancing for a fight that has movement, because some callings will do more than others. Not every fight will have the same mechanics, you cannot balance everyone to have the same dps no matter what fight your doing. Some callings have an advantage in some fights, that is perfectly fine.

    In your example : If you buffed cleric dps so that on movement fights they don't fall behind, what happens when you reach a zero movement fight? The cleric with his "compensated" dps increase, now dominates the rogue....

    I said it before, I'll say it again. So long as every calling is capable of similar dps in an ideal situation, that is balanced. You DO NOT buff a calling thats low dps on a single fight just because the mechanics of that fight don't suit the calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    We could compare dummy DPS though to begin with, if someone posted theirs. Rotation, gear, spec, DPS over 2mins.
    Yes, please someone start with dummy parses. I'm trying hard for 50, but my gear will suck and so will my parses as Omega is a dead server with no dungeon runs happening.

  8. #28
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    I can't seem to get parse to work on dummies. Suggestions?

  9. #29
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    Ok here are some numbers from last Greenscale raid. Spec is 51inquis 15cabalist. 5cabal 10sentinel might be better instead though will check later which one is higher, but the difference shouldn't be too big. Gear is full T2 epics(822spellpower,391spellcrit,204focus), slightly under focus cap, because it seems extremely hard atm to get the focus cap with the items we get access to since it was removed from armor but jewelry/weapons didn't get additional focus. Had to use mage gear too to reach my 204(which is about 26lower than what I'd need to no resist on boss mobs). Was healing on Duke so don't have a DPS parse for that. Rotation was pretty simple, apply the 2dots as they drop, spam Judgement, use Depravity when concord procs, and activate Fanaticism on these. There might be a stronger rotation but again I doubt the difference is too big, I'll check different spells see if I can improve it.

    The list shows the highest DPS per calling, as well as the rank of the highest cleric compared to all other DPS in the raid. Raid did change over time but that gives you an idea of how many rogues/warriors/mages are outdpsing the first cleric.

    On Oracle Aleria, fight duration 3:55
    Warrior=621DPS Paragon/champion
    Mage=556DPS 35pyro/16archon/15elem
    Rogue=525DPS marksman/ranger build
    Cleric(#5)=524DPS

    On Infiltrator Johlen, fight duration 3:39
    Warrior=821DPS Paragon/champion
    Rogue=735DPS marksman/ranger
    Cleric(#8)=609DPS
    Mage logged off for this fight

    On Prince Hylas, phase1, fight duration 4:31
    Rogue=785DPS Marksman/ranger
    Warrior=739DPS Paragon/champion
    Mage=680DPS Pyro/Archon/Elem
    Cleric(#7)=650DPS

    On Prince Hylas, phase2, fight duration 2:51
    Cleric(what's up AE phase)=994DPS
    Rogue=952DPS Marksman/ranger
    Warrior=885 Paragon/Champ
    Mage=618(new player, didn't AE...) Pyro/Ele/Archon

    So now what can we see? Well that cleric DPS IS lower, the scores I had from monday's raid were just inflated by the AE phases. Now it's not that low on every fight, but enough that you wouldn't want a cleric full DPSing unless you didn't want to switch someone out of the raid. We can see that warrior is OP as usual, and rogues do very well on an almost static fight(infiltrator) but not so well on fights involving movement where clerics and mage can more easily catch up. Obviously casters are a lot better at AEing, but that doesn't help very much in most situations. I'll start doing some dummy tests especially with melee specs and report this.

    If you want the parses Zibnik, I'll need your email since I can't attach them to the forums(too big) and don't wanna upload them to a random non secure website. Well unless you tell me it's fine then I'll upload them somewhere so everyone can check them. They're like a couple of mb in zip form.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Ok here are some numbers from last Greenscale raid. Spec is 51inquis 15cabalist. 5cabal 10sentinel might be better instead though will check later which one is higher, but the difference shouldn't be too big. Gear is full T2 epics, slightly under focus cap, because it seems extremely hard atm to get the focus cap with the items we get access to since it was removed from armor but jewelry/weapons didn't get additional focus. Had to use mage gear too to reach my 204(which is about 26lower than what I'd need to no resist on boss mobs). Was healing on Duke so don't have a DPS parse for that. Rotation was pretty simple, apply the 2dots as they drop, spam Judgement, use Depravity when concord procs, and activate Fanaticism on these. There might be a stronger rotation but again I doubt the difference is too big, I'll check different spells see if I can improve it.

    The list shows the highest DPS per calling, as well as the rank of the highest cleric compared to all other DPS in the raid. Raid did change over time but that gives you an idea of how many rogues/warriors/mages are outdpsing the first cleric.

    On Oracle Aleria, fight duration 3:55
    Warrior=621DPS Paragon/champion
    Mage=556DPS 35pyro/16archon/15elem
    Rogue=525DPS marksman/ranger build
    Cleric(#5)=524DPS

    On Infiltrator Johlen, fight duration 3:39
    Warrior=821DPS Paragon/champion
    Rogue=735DPS marksman/ranger
    Cleric(#8)=609DPS
    Mage logged off for this fight

    On Prince Hylas, phase1, fight duration 4:31
    Rogue=785DPS Marksman/ranger
    Warrior=739DPS Paragon/champion
    Mage=680DPS Pyro/Archon/Elem
    Cleric(#7)=650DPS

    On Prince Hylas, phase2, fight duration 2:51
    Cleric(what's up AE phase)=994DPS
    Rogue=952DPS Marksman/ranger
    Warrior=885 Paragon/Champ
    Mage=618(new player, didn't AE...) Pyro/Ele/Archon

    So now what can we see? Well that cleric DPS IS lower, the scores I had from monday's raid were just inflated by the AE phases. Now it's not that low on every fight, but enough that you wouldn't want a cleric full DPSing unless you didn't want to switch someone out of the raid. We can see that warrior is OP as usual, and rogues do very well on an almost static fight(infiltrator) but not so well on fights involving movement where clerics and mage can more easily catch up. Obviously casters are a lot better at AEing, but that doesn't help very much in most situations. I'll start doing some dummy tests especially with melee specs and report this.

    If you want the parses Zibnik, I'll need your email since I can't attach them to the forums(too big) and don't wanna upload them to a random non secure website. Well unless you tell me it's fine then I'll upload them somewhere so everyone can check them. They're like a couple of mb in zip form.
    If those were the melee numbers of a shaman, I'd say well it's something but as a ranged DPS cleric with luxuries that the melee classes only suffer through kinda breaks my heart.

  11. #31
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    A few dummy parses numbers, over 4-5mins runs, using the same gear(without weapons equipped, 514spellpower, 361spell crit, 142focus).

    Using as weapons Enthalpy+Wall of Bones for Inquisitor, rotation: Recast Sanction+Vex as they drop, spam Bolt of Judgement, use Bolt of Depravity when it procs instant and use Fanaticism on it when it's up

    51 Inquisitor/10 Cabalist/5 Sentinel 822spellpower, 391spellcrit, 204focus >>> 521DPS
    51 Inquisitor/15 Cabalist/0 Sentinel 785spellpower, 391spellcrit, 204focus >>> 563DPS
    51 Inquisitor/5Cabalist/10Sentinel 822spellpower, 391spellcrit, 204focus >>> 589DPS

    Using as weapon Runebinder, not entirely certain about the melee specs so I tried a couple of things. First build is DPS/Utility, second build is more pure DPS trying to use druid, 3rd is druid test, 4th a pure shaman centric build. Rotation for shaman specs is keep Lightning Hammer up, spam Crushing, use Massive Blow whenever it's up. For the 38sham/26druid spec I added Eruption of Life and Combined Effort to the rotation whenever they were up. For the druid spec, Eruption/Bombard/Combined Effort/Massive Blow whenever they're up, else spam Fervent Strike. Use both Rage of the Fae and Natural Dedication at the same time just after using Combined Effort.

    45 Shaman/10 Druid/ 11 Justicar 961spellpower, 384spellcrit, 195focus >>> 457DPS
    38 Shaman/26 Druid/ 2 Justicar 961spellpower, 384spellcrit, 195focus >>> 486DPS
    42 Druid/24 Shaman 961spellpower, 384spellcrit, 195focus >>> 525DPS
    51 Shaman/5 Druid/10 Sentinel 1009spellpower, 384spellcrit, 195focus >>> 600DPS(!)

    So these tests were very informative for one reason: There is a freaking good shaman build around it seems. I still need to test it in raid conditions, but the simple fact it beats every inquis specs I tried is pretty impressive in itself(might just have been crit randomness and stuff though). It also is leagues beyond what would seem like decent shaman specs. It's absolutely boring to play(basically it's 2buttons if you macro Crushing blow with massive blow) but eh it's there at least. Does have a little utility with 2 instant cast ranged spells from Sentinel for when you're forced to move away from the boss while the charge isn't up or the boss is doing something bad in pbae. I liked the druid spec in terms of how it plays, but it seems to be lagging behind, there might be a better build though. It does end up with decent utiliy including the 15%AP buff from satyr.

    I'm still kinda new to clerics, so these are the specs I came up with in the 2 hours or so I spent testing. Might find more interesting stuff later, and I haven't bothered testing Cabalist since I doubt it does competitive single target DPS(which if it's the case is pretty bad design considering Inquisitor already does good AE dmg).

  12. #32
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    Numbers looking a bit low, I'll assume gear and maybe rotation, my numbers were on average 25-50 DPS higher.

    Shaman may hit the sweet spot for perfect acceptable DPS if massive blow gets taken off global. It won't be the most interesting class but with the proc clipping the cool down for free instant damage that may be a big step up for the class as far as numbers are concerned. Other than that I'd vote for the druid's eruption of life and the shaman's lighting hammer to be next on the chopping block for global freedom love. Finally how about the shaman's dodge block parry move be a reactive off of a critical like the warrior's frenzied strike. We'd at least pull close to 700 DPS well a more well defined and tightened rotation taking priority into effect.

  13. #33
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    problem i see with some of these numbers are some people are better or worst then others at dealing with encounters that need movement missing a few seconds, i.e the rogue in one of the given examples clearly was just being slack :P

  14. #34
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    Depends on what you are doing, to be truthful the target dummy means nothing unless the raid content is boring tank and spank. That's not the case, so with all the movement, floor awareness, and down right anti melee mechanics hitting even 600 DPS as a melee anything is not easy to do. The only method is to cheat on AoE phases in some encounters or down right overwork your healers.

  15. #35
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    Thank you pyros, as expected melee clerics are 60% of the dps the other callings do. We've only been saying this forever while being completely ignored.

  16. #36
    the given numbers of pyros donīt show anywhere that clerics are only doing 60% dps compared to other callings!

    On Infiltrator Johlen, fight duration 3:39
    Warrior=821DPS Paragon/champion
    Cleric(#8)=609DPS

    this is the highest difference and its about 74% of the warriors dps.

    on test dummy we see that a shaman build makes 6.2% more dmg than the inq/caba build. so it would be 78% of the warriors dps.
    so there is clearly a differnce but not as high as you say.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellkar View Post
    the given numbers of pyros donīt show anywhere that clerics are only doing 60% dps compared to other callings!

    On Infiltrator Johlen, fight duration 3:39
    Warrior=821DPS Paragon/champion
    Cleric(#8)=609DPS

    this is the highest difference and its about 74% of the warriors dps.

    on test dummy we see that a shaman build makes 6.2% more dmg than the inq/caba build. so it would be 78% of the warriors dps.
    so there is clearly a differnce but not as high as you say.
    This has already been stated before (in this very thread!) but please do not compare raid encounters with dummy encounters. If you wish to compare a warrior and a melee cleric, do so with numbers from the same encounter. If you want to compare the posted melee cleric numbers against a warrior, please get the warriors parse on a dummy. Thank you.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellanved View Post
    This has already been stated before (in this very thread!) but please do not compare raid encounters with dummy encounters. If you wish to compare a warrior and a melee cleric, do so with numbers from the same encounter. If you want to compare the posted melee cleric numbers against a warrior, please get the warriors parse on a dummy. Thank you.
    i think its ok to compare raid encounters and dummies the way i did.
    dummies show that a meele cleric can provide more dps than a caster cleric.
    the champion/paragon provides also melee dps so its a valid assumption that a melee cleric provides the same percentage of damage more than the ranged cleric as seen on dummies, because the Infiltrator Johlen fight is the one with highest warrior dps so it seems to be melee friendly.

    but further more, let us look only on dummies:
    http://ch1.goodtimes.trionworlds.com...ll=1#post44036

    rouges do with t2 gear as pyros has between 550-730 dps

    that is the only thing i find about dps on dummies. so if you have more post it.

    all in all cleric dps (especially single target casters clercs dps) is lower but not as low as some of you say.

  19. #39
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    According to dummy tests carried out by Pyros the best Inquisitor parse vs the best Shaman parse was only a difference of 11dps - 589 vs 600 respectively.

    I'm quite happy that both souls are so close in a straight up tank and spank environment(dummy) but i'm still concerned that its too low compared to other callings for the little to no support we bring.

    Its clear to see that 51pts in Shaman or Inquisitor is needed to get these kind of parses, that leaves so few pts to get any kind of group support tools to justify having lower dps output.

    One thing I would really hate to see is a simple increase in % dmg per point spent for Shaman/Inquisitor passives, the power gains are so backloaded already and should really be provided a little earlier with maybe a longer build up. Gaining 50% dmg increase over the last 15 levels of the game could be done more smoothly over the 20-50 period instead.

  20. #40
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    For dummy DPS, I don't have warrior numbers but I could get some of our high parsing warriors to give me rough estimate(Alejo and Tyrxis for people who knows warriors on guardian side). For rogues people linked the thread already, Xep and Draegan are also getting these kind of numbers. For mages, the last time I checked using the basic pyromancer/elem/archon build on dummies I was around 700DPS. I haven't parsed the new warlock with the dot critting, but still don't think it'll be that high due to a lack of synergy between lock and other souls(necro just doesn't work very well as a sub, pet is too high maintenance and the talents lack passive damage increase). I was parsing 580-600 with the old one though, and iirc around 650 with a pure elementalist build.

    For the raid parses, it's not really that rogue players were bad at dealing with something, the only bad rogue parses are on Aleria, which is mostly a static fight, but there's a lot of easy AE(wisps) which rogues don't do much of compared to warriors(who spam cleaves) or mages/inquis who can usually use ground AEs to hit the boss and 2wisps at the same time. Also there's a bunch of target switching during the fight which doesn't favor rogue DPS. These figures are only of 1 raid, not even with the same people and some of them being pretty new to the game too. Still even if you have to take them with a grain of salt, find them more interesting than discussing stuff without any actual data though.


    So what that tells us is clerics aren't TOO far behind, but they're still behind. By about 10-20% depending on the case and spec. A quick fix for the Druid spec would be to make Satyr buff your AP after the cleric passive kicks in, which would give about 150more AP, should bump that DPS quite nicely. For shaman and inquis, I think the easiest way is to tune the passive some more, or simply adding a flat increase into existing talents already. Alternatively I guess you could nerf everyone else, but it sounds simpler to buff 3 cleric DPS souls than attempt to nerf entire callings down, especially since everytime you nerf a build, people find another build that might not perform as well but still perform better than the intended target.

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