+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Mage - rolling the short stick?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    107

    Mage - rolling the short stick?

    So in a game that sees tanks turn into rogues, melee rogues turn into tanks/ranged dps, and healers turn into melee/caster dps (all with the simple click of a button mind you), where is that exactly leaving the cloth wearing mage class in this game? More specifically, and for those of us who's potential decision to play a mage extends beyond the simple desire of wanting/needing to play a caster, why should we want to play one?

    As it stands now, i'm just not seeing any clear direction on where this class is heading, or where/how the final "asset value" here is going to be established. I mean for the most part, the mage class ultimately just strikes me as little more then a hastily thrown together class (don't get me started on the comparative tree synergy), with a stronger design emphasis being placed on cool-in-a-vacuum features then it's place/playability in the grander scheme of a multi-player setting. Ultimately leaving it's inclusion in this game revolving a lot more around some nostalgic need to have one present then anything else, imo.

    With the last round of combat changes, and the across-the-board nerf to spell damage, it seems we are currently being destined to take the back seat in the dps department. Basically leaving the Rift mage as a utility class, forced into wearing cloth, who's range damage asset is essentially negated by one-click-away Marksman, and in a game where utility value such as mez projects to be minor and *potentially* situational at best.

    If that's basically 'the plan", some dev clarification would be appreciated. That way i can rest easy in my current recommendation to any/all guild mates to NOT roll a mage in the event they don't both fully enjoy and expect to spend a majority of their non-solo pve time playing a Chloromancer. Well, at least as the one or 2 not ideally sitting the pine endgame

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    899
    I think the Mage dilemma is a product of a system that has promised so much flexibility that one's calling no longer reflects one's purpose.

    In past MMORPGs, there were tanks, melee DPS, ranged DPS, and healers, and they neatly fit into the four archetypes, which made purpose and balance quite simple. If a Warrior was not the best tank, something was wrong, and it was fixed. If a Mage was not the best ranged DPS, something was wrong, and it was fixed. And so on.

    In Rift, for better or worse, there seem to be no such rules, so the purpose of your calling is always going to be undefined, which makes figuring out how it should be balanced almost impossible. Should a Warrior cry foul when a Rogue is a better tank? Maybe, maybe not. There is almost no guidance on the subject.

    Anyway, Trion is in the precarious position of trying to satisfy two nearly opposing things:
    1. Flexibility in one's role
    2. Balance
    Number 1 presently is not even close to being even (see: Clerics can fulfill every role, to some degree, Rogues are slightly behind, and Mages and Warriors can do two roles), and number 2 is all over the map. I expect number 2 to be off, due to Rift being in alpha/beta status, but number 1 concerns me the most, since there are inherent inequalities that are never going to be touched now - that is clear. Two callings can do everything, to some extent, while the other two can do two things. That is what bothers me the most.

    Anyway, that was a rather generic response, but I do agree that Mages have almost no identity. I cannot think of a reason I would want a Mage in my group over another calling, save for some AoE prowess, something they do fairly well. Really, if I had to choose two callings to populate a group, I could do just fine with Clerics and Rogues, which, surprise, are the two callings with the most flexibility.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    8
    I was pretty fond of the identity we had back when pyro did half decent damage. That didn't last long.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    4
    I have a general problem with class discussions recently just like it seems to be the case in this thread. My primary problem is, what are the goals for the different souls, in other terms for example, should the pyromancer be a single target dps guy with a low to medium survivabilty. I there should be some guidelines on what the dev wanted the different classes to be so someone is able to give feedback on if it works or not.
    A quick example for a class that pretty much has no purpose in PvE at all seems to be the Dominator, mostly all the abilities for CC break on dmg, also he has a lot of abilities that suppress or lower healing but nearly no monsters heal themselves or others, at least on the low levels. In PvP this is more interesting but if the majority of the skills are situational and hence not usable in PvE this is more like a PvP soul than a normal Soul.
    So if the question rises on how much damage mages should do and so on we would need guidelines on what there purpose is in the first place I think. For PvE and PvP. Also in case for a multi soul setup this is somehow important because currently using multiple souls has such high drawbacks that it outweighs the benefits in most cases.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    217
    Why play a mage? because they have so much more utility compared to a rogue. im able to kill 2 x 44 elite mobs at once in latern hooks ini with my 43er elementalist. i dont think a rogue can manage that. or play a stormy and do insane ae damage. just 2 examples.

  6. #6
    This may or may not contribute to the topic, but I am thoroughly enjoying the mage.

    I can solo lvl 50 elite's with the elementalist/warlock. (Thank you for the recent < agro from the pet heal)
    I can heal dungeons and pvp with the chloro/warlock and heal pretty darn good. (Haven't leveled a cleric high enough to compare it because the mage has been so enjoyable.)
    I can DPS on the pyro as the traditional mage.
    I can play utility with the archon..(although I haven't gotten many group opportunities to really play it and test its effectiveness)

    3 or 4 patches ago, I was more than pleased with the Chloro's healing in the normal dungeons. I have only felt slightly reduced dps / kill power on my Chloro/warlock build that I used to level up to 50 with. The spell power nerf (not sure if this is entirely from rebalancing gear stats or the changes to character stats or both) only prompted me to try solo'n (grinding dailies) with a similar elementalist/warlock build.

    Dominator seems to be the only semi-useless soul to me right now outside of pvp. Archon has some viability but I'm not sold on their buffs being powerful enough to do a pure spec for utility. If I wasn't trying to get a cleric leveled up (to compare their healing vs. Chloro) I would continue exploring all the mage souls until they turn Alpha off. That's just how much I am enjoying the archtype.

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoma View Post
    Why play a mage? because they have so much more utility compared to a rogue. im able to kill 2 x 44 elite mobs at once in latern hooks ini with my 43er elementalist. i dont think a rogue can manage that. or play a stormy and do insane ae damage. just 2 examples.
    Comparing anything to a rogue ATM is pretty moot. That class is completely screwed as it stands right now. Also the single target dps nerf pyro got was super terrible.

  8. #8
    I fully agree with Sornin, although I see 5 jobs to do. For me utility/support is also something highly valuable. Cleric and rogue calling are very well rouded atm, being able to tank, rdps, mdps, heal and also support. There are differences in extent of ability for those two callings, but essentially they got a ful try of options.

    Mages and warriors got the stick, atm. Warriors only have the option of tanking, mdps and utility, mages can only offer rdps and utiliy, being off worst of all callings.

    I like the soul system very much, and I fully understand that balancing is a serious issue there. Still balancing the callings is seriously needed and must be tackled before further balancing souls.

  9. #9
    Warriors

    Tank Souls
    Warlord Utility
    Riftblade Mid Range DPS
    DPS Souls high Mele DPS

    Rouge
    Riftsalker Tank
    DPS Range
    DPS Melee
    BArde Buff and Heal

    Cleric
    Ok he can do all
    Buffs are not so high

    Mage
    Range DPS
    AOE DPS
    Healer
    Utility

    Looks OK for me

    Maybee a Swordmage (like inD&D) would be a nice Tanking Class extension
    and a Monk a nice Melee extension
    Thanks to the multible Soul System itīs easy for Trion to add Souls like this.

    Acheron and Dominator still needīs a bit love at the moment.

    But i dont think Dominator is PVE useless.
    If you sheep like in WOW some bosses Trash mobs getīs lot easyer.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    490
    Archon and Dominator is what is hurting us. And the Pyro nerf. And the Chloromancer isn't optimal.

    The Dominator is too schizophrenic. Looong cast times means it is useless for PvP except if you go really high in the tree, too far for most people, and since the class is PvP centric, noone would use it except for 0 or 2 points in PvE, and even then the game isn't making use of CC enough.

    The Archon has too much overlap with the Bard, but used to be very good. Until they nerfed the Pyro. I would go as far as saying my old 32 Archon/ 19 Pyro build was one of my favorite ones. You buff and debuff expertly, and do way above average DPS to pull your weight when not casting buffs or debuffs. That option is now gone. For me, the bard overlap needs to go and the archon get more unique auras. Furthermore, the Pyro needs restoring.

    The Chloro isn't bad, but it has too many valleys and peaks when healing. You're either overhealing and wasting precious green numbers, or underhealing/ catching up. It needs to be more streamlined than this.

    The rest are the 'brainless DPS' souls, which are ok, except the pyro, but not enough to hold the entire archetype up. The Warlock is fun to play, at least, with nice micromanaging and 'have-to-plan-ahead-ness'.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    717
    It is in my opinion that the sacrificial portion of the Archon needs to go and it needs to be more of a "imma stealin ur stats" char. I just hate the idea of lowering my stats when the same thing could be accomplished with abilities akin to Lingering Dust and Waning Power. Not to mention it's fun to drain your opponents to a statless husk. And @Mercury, it's common to see people go at least 6 Dominator for the reflect, even in pve. =p

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    698
    Archon isn't so bad, the main issue to me, besides numbers tweaking so the auras are more in line with other classes, specifically the hp aura with the warlord one and the armor aura with the bard one or the beastmaster one(which is better than both bard and archon), the main issue I was saying is fighting the UI. Keeping track of the 5 auras+2debuff induced buffs+2dmg induced buffs, on 5mins duration, is annoying as hell. Not only it's annoying to keep an eye on what is up and for how long due to not being able to split the buff bar, but on top of that some of them are also annoying to rebuff(Rock Slide needs 20charge and being in combat for example, but even the others that require to be in combat at all). God forbid you wipe on a boss, cause then you have to spend the first 20-25secs of the boss fight rebuffing yourself, while starting a lot weaker(which makes you a prime target for an instant gib on pull fun time). I like the design of the class overall(stealing stats to buff yourself/your group), but it needs a pretty serious overhaul so it's fun to play and not a freaking chore where you spend half your time looking at your buff bar(which is even worse than looking at health bars).

    Chloro is perfectly fine right now, might even be one of the strongest healing soul, as long as you don't need to LoS stuff and you're capped on focus.

    Dominator I have no idea what to do with this. I really like my 12pt dom in my chloro spec, tons of good cheap utility, spellpower and damage, but I'd never main dom for any reason but pvp, and even for that I'm not sure I'd want to.

    Rest I don't care too much about since I don't really like DPSing anyway, but Warlock and Necro seem to be extremely weak in general. Necro seems weak because of the overreliance on a pet, of its crappy spammable nuke and of its lack of an efficient charge dump(pyro 20%dmg, stormcaller 20%dmg, chloro 19%dmg, elementalist +flat dmg that amounts for like 20%, those are good dumps). You can get a better bolt and better charge dump from another tree(mostly pyro since it's the cheapest) but your pet still doesn't benefit from the charge dump and it feels kinda weird to spam fireballs as a main necro, and it's still less dmg than pyro/elem.

    Warlocks, even though it has a better dump than anything else with the 51point, and even though you actually don't waste too many points to get it because the talents are all pretty strong, still does inferior damage compared to about everything else. Says a lot when you can +75%dmg and you still do less than other specs. The randomness of Neddra's Torture(sometimes consume all charges, sometimes consume 2), the antisynergy of Sacrifice Life to Speed+1.5s GCD with 1.6 talented shadowbolts, the low damage of the other dot and yeah, it's pretty freaking weak. Decent AE power though, when Radiate is up.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Warlocks, even though it has a better dump than anything else with the 51point, and even though you actually don't waste too many points to get it because the talents are all pretty strong, still does inferior damage compared to about everything else. Says a lot when you can +75%dmg and you still do less than other specs. The randomness of Neddra's Torture(sometimes consume all charges, sometimes consume 2), the antisynergy of Sacrifice Life to Speed+1.5s GCD with 1.6 talented shadowbolts, the low damage of the other dot and yeah, it's pretty freaking weak. Decent AE power though, when Radiate is up.
    Warlock is the most survivable solo spec, and does decent enough damage. After 26, when radiate death comes up, you can permanently ditch your Pyro and Stormcaller for solo AoE, because Warlock is so much better at handling way more targets reliably.

  14. #14
    Warlock is Ok.
    Archon still needs a lot of work. ( buffs collision with other classes ) and the feeling is not so good.
    Pyromancer Perfect, maybe Fire AOE is still a bit to strong.
    Elementarlist Top
    Necro Top, small ballaning problems maybee
    Cloromancer good looking but needs more testing to say its perfect ( raidcontent )
    Stormcoller makes much fun to play BUT it needs some tweaking
    Dominator could use a global talent in Tier 0. ( Like "All Air damage has a chance 1-5% to stun for 2 sek")
    That could fix the problem for Stormcaller becouse i think he needs a bit anti caster after Stun -> Root

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts