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Thread: A note about Paragon

  1. #1
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    Cool A note about Paragon

    I've been leveling with every soul combination I can think of, throwing caution to the wind and just trying to enjoy myself. Some souls are way better at leveling than others, and that just comes down to survivability. But anyway, I recently have been playing Paragon and having a lot of fun with it.

    However, Paragon seems to have a huge downside in that it has increased attack speed compared to the other 2-handed souls, but the global CD is unaffected. This doesn't seem to be too much of a problem until you decide to use any of the self-buffs granted at the higher tiers of the talent tree. Namely Bend Like a Reed, the Parry buff, triggers the global cool down. So you spend your time building up 3 Attack Points, just to sit and wait nearly 3 seconds to take advantage of it. Given that the buff only lasts 10 seconds, you lose out on almost 30% of the buff's duration doing nothing. You could make the argument that it is a defensive buff, but even the 0 point ability Strike Like Iron, a damage increase, suffers from the same problem.

    With a class that is geared towards speed and deftly countering the enemies moves, it seems counter-intuitive to give them so much down time to take advantage of the great buffs you earn by climbing the talent tree. At this point its more useful to use Paragon as a sub soul for other slower souls that really don't rely on speed so much. Champion for example has just as many if not more abilities that dish out large amounts of damage to compensate for the loss in speed. In this case using Strike Like Iron wouldn't matter as much because you can use the damage increase on a single ability, rather than relying on it to improve your several small amounts of damage quickly. I'm sure anyone that has played Paragon could note the immediate change in flow the second you decide to use a self-buff.

    The best two solutions I can think of are to either remove global cool downs on Paragon self-buffs altogether, or to give them some sort of talent that increases haste or shortens the global cool down.

    I know some people don't like reading blocks of text so..
    In short: At this point there seems to be no point in forgoing Champion or Riftblade for a faster martial arts-esque dual wielding soul if you are hindered by the same global CD, given that most melee abilities in this game are based on weapon damage, making 2-handers more effective.

    Just my two cents.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyre View Post
    In short: At this point there seems to be no point in forgoing Champion or Riftblade for a faster martial arts-esque dual wielding soul if you are hindered by the same global CD, given that most melee abilities in this game are based on weapon damage, making 2-handers more effective.

    Just my two cents.
    What about Double Attack instead?

  3. #3
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    That's a good idea and if it's viable it'd be an interesting mechanic for sure. I tried to avoid overpowering the class by aiming at marginal increases in effectiveness. They even gave Riftblades a double attack type ability for their burst abilities. It doesn't seem like the Paragon damage is too underpowered, but only if they have the chance to continue attacking uninterrupted as their damage is more steady. Using a buff immediately stops all outgoing damage and brings all your dps to a halt, putting Paragons even further behind in their ability dish it out. It seems out of place.

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    am i the only one that feels this way or does no one really play paragon?

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    Tried it for like 20mins at level 30, and yeah basically I disliked that everything is on GCD, so it was just like most other warrior souls in terms of pace, and a lot of the stuff seemed like it'd scale really weel later with gear, but not at low gear level(like the flat dmg% finisher, that'll be brutal later). I agree that they could put the buff finishers off the GCD like the Riftblade finishers, simple solution for a faster pace.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyre View Post
    am i the only one that feels this way or does no one really play paragon?
    I do not think many people play Paragons because even testing them is a chore when every other Warrior soul is more fun and more useful. Like you first said, Warriors who wish to do DPS go for Champions, Riftblades, or Beastmasters. Multiple posts and pieces of feedback have been issued about Paragons, but little to nothing has been done.

    Right now, Paragons have no role. I envisioned the Paragon as the premiere single-target DPS Warrior soul, but that vision definitely has not been realized. They are based on avoidance, but are not tanks. They need to be re-tooled to be straight dual-wield DPS with none of this parry and dodge nonsense, and have their cumbersome follow-up mechanic looked at, if not just plain removed. It is added work with no reward.

    edit: Literally as I posted this, this patch happened: http://ch1.goodtimes.trionworlds.com...ead.php?t=1244

    Hopefully this will improve Paragons a bit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sornin View Post
    edit: Literally as I posted this, this patch happened: http://ch1.goodtimes.trionworlds.com...ead.php?t=1244

    Hopefully this will improve Paragons a bit!

    Hahah yes as I was checking the forums I noticed the patch, and I'm off to go try out the changes

    I'm very impressed with the level of attention and care Trion is applying to this Alpha.

  8. #8
    I tested Paragon a bit with the new changes. The 51 point skill, Flurry, seems underwhelming to me currently. The damage on it is ok for a 1min CD, but it also feels like I could pump out more damage using normal attacks and follow-ups during those 8 seconds instead of channeling Flurry. The only good thing from the 51 point root skill is that it continues it's hits no matter how far you are from your target. This, I am sure, is a bug with the skill since it is a melee-oriented attack. I will continue to test Paragon for a bit to thoroughly see how it fares.

    Also, Grace of the Five Rings still does not give parry bonus when dual wielding crafted Carmintium Axes. Just wondering if this is the same for non-crafted or other lower tier crafted 1h weapons.

    More notes:

    Paired Strike is placing it's buff on the target, rather than the warrior. This does not allow the warrior to make the next follow-up attack crit.

    Rank 2/2 Improved Flowing Strikes is not giving it's increased duration to Flowing strikes.

    Improved Predictable Movements is not adding it's increased duration to Predictable Movements. (possibly happening to all duration increasing skills for this patch?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
    The damage on it is ok for a 1min CD, but it also feels like I could pump out more damage using normal attacks and follow-ups during those 8 seconds instead of channeling Flurry.
    This is honestly how the class feels at the moment. All the abilities and buffs you work your way up to during a longer encounter feel so cumbersome or underwhelming that it's as if you're better off ignoring them and dishing out damage with regular attacks. I will say the new double attack is quite useful, but suffers from the same problem I mentioned above. What I have been doing to counteract the downtime of buffing myself is waiting to use my counterattack (used after a parry or block) or my instant spell interrupt during a GCD period. This seems to help the transition from Attack Point usage to damaging once again. However, these two attacks are not the most damaging, and since the double attack is based off ability damage, it's more beneficial to use better abilities for the 3 hits allotted. Once again I am stuck waiting for cool downs. Granted this can't be avoided, but it seems a bit too reliant given the concept and role of the class.

    Also, nice catches on these bugs.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post

    Paired Strike is placing it's buff on the target, rather than the warrior. This does not allow the warrior to make the next follow-up attack crit.

    Rank 2/2 Improved Flowing Strikes is not giving it's increased duration to Flowing strikes.

    Improved Predictable Movements is not adding it's increased duration to Predictable Movements. (possibly happening to all duration increasing skills for this patch?)
    These are being addressed for the next patch.

    We are interested in any feedback on this class given the new changes that were just pushed live so please keep it coming.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrius View Post
    These are being addressed for the next patch.

    We are interested in any feedback on this class given the new changes that were just pushed live so please keep it coming.
    I have to give you guys serious Kudos. The speed and involvement you guys are putting out is truly refreshing.

    I have had a paragon build since well before this last patch (11/4/10) and now after.

    The biggest problem for me was, and still is, the massive interference of several abilities and the global cool-down.

    Strike like lion, predictable movements, etc. By the time you get to reap the benefits of having "cast" them, you just burned 2-3 seconds of their duration.

    If the intent is to dilute them by having them as part of the global cool-down, a suggested change would be to remove them from the global-cooldown, make them insta-cast, and reduce their duration by 3 seconds. That would actually be more palatable than standing there laughing at myself that I just cast "Strike like lion".

    Ha ha ha, thats right, I just buffed mahself, cuz im coool...Ack, there I go again, monologing myself out of buff duration, doh!

    I am not sure how to rate the change to shifting blades yet.

    I actually really liked it when it was a multi-target attack, i found that quite useful. The current iteration does kind of fit the concept of paragon by causing a second attack, but that leaves no multi-opponent attack for quite a while.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sornin View Post
    Right now, Paragons have no role. I envisioned the Paragon as the premiere single-target DPS Warrior soul, but that vision definitely has not been realized. They are based on avoidance, but are not tanks.
    You bring up a good point here. Even in PvP where their avoidance would really be taken advantage of, weapon attacks account for a surprisingly low amount of damage done. However, in PvE as you mentioned they become more of a floater. Without the addition of dodges and parries, they lose out on a core section of their abilities and would immediately be handicapped in dps. Maybe we'll see the dawn of the Paragon parry tanks? +75% parry is fairly tasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoCrows View Post
    I have to give you guys serious Kudos. The speed and involvement you guys are putting out is truly refreshing.

    I have had a paragon build since well before this last patch (11/4/10) and now after.

    The biggest problem for me was, and still is, the massive interference of several abilities and the global cool-down.

    Strike like lion, predictable movements, etc. By the time you get to reap the benefits of having "cast" them, you just burned 2-3 seconds of their duration.

    If the intent is to dilute them by having them as part of the global cool-down, a suggested change would be to remove them from the global-cooldown, make them insta-cast, and reduce their duration by 3 seconds. That would actually be more palatable than standing there laughing at myself that I just cast "Strike like lion".

    Ha ha ha, thats right, I just buffed mahself, cuz im coool...Ack, there I go again, monologing myself out of buff duration, doh!

    I am not sure how to rate the change to shifting blades yet.

    I actually really liked it when it was a multi-target attack, i found that quite useful. The current iteration does kind of fit the concept of paragon by causing a second attack, but that leaves no multi-opponent attack for quite a while.
    I totally agree, as stated above. The GCD is very misplaced, and removing it off of buffs and enhancing abilities would really improve the quality of the class. The changes posted yesterday were a step in the right direction, and I think the GCD fix would give them a nice resting place in the class system. But Sornin brings in a new element.. How do Paragons fit into end game PvE? Would be nice to find a purpose for these new and intriguing classes introduced like Saboteur who are really just floaters in the Rift world right now.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyre View Post
    am i the only one that feels this way or does no one really play paragon?
    No I feel the same way.

    Here is what i think the Paragon needs:

    -Remove the GCD after non damaging buffs like: strike like iron, bend like a reed. That way you can take 100% of the buff
    -Have all follow-up run on a different GCD then attack point generators so "follow-up" feels a little more that you are actually do so.
    -Fix shifting blades so that it works with aoe (right now doesn't work)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alardmik
    Remove the GCD after non damaging buffs like: strike like iron, bend like a reed. That way you can take 100% of the buff
    This absolutely must be done. Presently, the buffs not only are wasted for 1.5s, but in that time your DPS drops. If Riftblade finishers can come off the GCD, so can these.

    Another thing Paragons could use early on, as in the first 2 levels, is a damaging finisher. They have to poach one from another soul for far too long. Path of the Tempest at 16 represents their first chance to get one, and it is a branch.

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    I main a beastmaster, and I made 2 1h weapons just to try Paragon, and I died on the first mob. I tried it a bit longer trying to get more of a feeling for the class, but just felt like it was clunky and slow feeling. I feel like the GCD really destroys Paragon as a usable class. Paragon should be about Combo's and stringing attacks together to create a flurry of oncoming attacks.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrumpers View Post
    I main a beastmaster, and I made 2 1h weapons just to try Paragon, and I died on the first mob. I tried it a bit longer trying to get more of a feeling for the class, but just felt like it was clunky and slow feeling. I feel like the GCD really destroys Paragon as a usable class. Paragon should be about Combo's and stringing attacks together to create a flurry of oncoming attacks.
    I think that is the most common experience with a paragon, especially coming from champion or beast. I really like the idea behind the soul, and can see how with a few fixes it could be a really fun class. Hopefully we will see some paragon love in the next few patches.

  17. #17
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    agreed with Alard and Scrumpers.. I gave paragon a try and it seemed clunky; survivability was way down too. I really like the combo idea - pull the attack chain idea from DAoC and have combos where you open with one ability, which unlocks another, and then a third when the second is used.. mix them up and have some on GCD, others instant. add in bleeds, armor/parry/dodge buffs for the player, debuffs, snares, etc for the mobs. 3attack point chains with a GCD opener, instant 2nd, GCD on finisher that leaves the mob bleeding, the warrior buffed and setup for the next attack chain.
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  18. #18
    For paragons Id like to see their buffs have no point build up.
    Make then last for 10 secs on a 15 sec CD.

    For their damaging skills, I feel this class really needs to have a boost to their dps. IMO even the paladin via the use of shield reactionaries has the same or better dps as a paragon.

    Either boost their 3 point damage skills, or chain together skills that enhance the damage of the most recently used skill.

    IE opener 1: weapon damage + 110 + debuff armor 5/10/15%
    mid chain2: if armor is debuffed, then mid chain 2 damage is 2x weapon damage + 120 + stun
    finisher: if stunned, then finisher does 100/150/200 x2 if dual wielding.

    The idea is to string together flowing atks while being able to be a warrior-- meaning retaining the ability to mitigate damage well, but not as well as a paladin/warlord.

  19. #19
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    How about a 4 chain attack system? Something where you have a good amount of

    Openers
    Follow Ups
    Finishers
    And then your combo point using abilities (Ultimates?)

    I remember playing the Swordmaster and Black Orc in WAR, and I enjoyed their playstyle. You had a couple no balance attacks, like a direct damage or one with a small buff, then you had your improved balance attacks, which were a snare or a hefty parry increase, and then you had your perfect balanced attacks that put a good debuff on the target or did an aoe knockback. With this system we can take it a step further even and put in a 4th part of the chain, whether thats a small buff like it is now or otherwise.

  20. #20
    i played a champion/paragorn/paladin (PPC) for some days because it is fun to wield two wpns
    well most of the points i spend inchampion for the dmg because paragorn on max isnt doin much of dmg at all so i had to compensate it with the champion.
    i know that i put 5 points in the onehanded dmg from the paladin, and skilled the champ straight to soldiers bearing+1 point for the dmgadd and with bloodthirst! the rest in the paragon.
    this combination was like a killing deathmachine.

    good i begun often slowly but when i was in the run and killed the first mob i had nearly no downtimes until the 8th mob, then i had to rest but i killed the eight one after another in rekordtime!

    the 100%crit from bloodthirst and 100%crit from (inascabilblabla fury ...lol forget actually the name^^) and the followups from champ and the first ones from paragorn increased my dmgi did a lot! with soldiers bearing adding to that i was like i said a deathmachine. well but it worked at his best with 2 swords and after get the killingblow for bloodthirster.
    my start of the rotation was bloodthirster (6-700dmg ///1400 with the lvl32skillfromthechamp) follow up for crit and then always inascablabla fury (550 dmg//+32skill was it 1200). in between i used my gcd for just only 2 skills to get actionpoint + some follow ups gave me ap, and then finisher. but in anycase i used maybe all my followups it was like 6 or so. but i reduced it on4 i had always on cd

    In Pve i was like a freakin deathmachine and with a healer on your side you run through a complete questzone in half a time you would do in any other team.

    the problem was, through soldiers bearing i did a lot of dmg but i got lot of dmg in return, and w/o soldiers bearing and the 32 skill from champ the paragon himself is useless.

    since i thoughjt iam a deathmachine i went and tried to duel an another warrior. in all combinations he was fightin me i lost
    not good for pvp, pvp it have to be a 2hclassbased or tank

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